Pre med course taken at home university

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

My daughter is rising junior at a prestigious university, went in thinking law school later but did not like the classes. Changed career track in 2nd year to pre med and really likes it especially Biology classes. Did not do well on org chem; "C’ overall. Took part 1 org chem during semester and part 2 during summer since time constraints and completing major requirements and pre med requirements but still no difference in overall grade that was bad. she still is quite good at other subjects and overall GPA current is 3.6.
Her university does not offer algebra based physics (only calculus based physics) so i was recommending that she take it next year in summer at home university which is a decent university.
I am seeking advise if this will be reasonable to take algebra based physics at home university?
what are her chances of med school acceptance with her course grades and GPA?
what else she should do to improve chances?

Thanks much, any suggestions will be helpful to me.

2

I’m assuming by home university, you mean a university near her home, not the college she normally attends.

Some med schools, especially those to which her undergrad sends lots of pre-med applicants every year, will note your D has tried to “duck” physics at her undergrad and it will reflect negatively on her application, particularly in light of the fact she did poorly in ochem.

You also need to check to see if her undergrad’s health professions committee will write her a letter of recommendation if she takes some of her pre-reqs elsewhere. (Most will not.) Applying without the endorsement from the health professions committee at her undergrad is often seen as a red flag.

Impossible to say without additional information, including a MCAT score.

What is her sGPA (GPA calcuated with only bio, chem, math and physics classes)?
What are her grades in her science pre-reqs for med school? (gen chem, ochem, bio, stats, calc?)

Her sGPA needs to in the 3.5+ range for her to be viable candidate for med school. (Unless there are some extraordinary circumstances involved.)

What pre-med ECs has your daughter been involved with? (Pre med ECs include: community service to the less fortunate, clinical volunteering, physician shadowing, lab or clinical research, demonstrated leadership thru holding offices or other positions w/ leadership responsibilities)

  1. Ace biochem

  2. take additional science & math classes to improve her sGPA.

  3. score 518 or better on the MCAT, with no sub-test score below 126

  4. get involved in pre-med ECs

  5. consider taking 1-3 gap years after college graduation to improve her application

  6. consider enrolling in a SMP if her MCAT is good.

3

Just because her Orgo is at C level, her sGPA could not be that good. In addition, agree that the physics should be taken at her normal Univ., she also need to do well in Calculus, an A- to be the minimum. It will be part of her SGpa or BCMP GPA, the M stands for Math.

Prestige does nothing to med school, GPA and Mcat do. Be prepared to apply for DO schools and lower ranked MD school, broadly, like 30 schools.

And SMP is a two sided sward, if she does well then it will improve her chances, if she does not top at least 50% of the class she will do harm on the chances.

Good luck.

4

^^ WOWM

New Mcat 518 is old Mcat 36 or 97%, that is a TALL order for a C student in orgo. Perhaps 80~85% is good enough for DO or at least she has med school to go to.

5

I have read through many old threads, and one C is not a deal breaker for MD schools. I think it was Bluedevilmike who got a C in Orgo, and did VERY well in admissions. There have been other posters with the same thing, so to assume one C is a deal breaker is not a given and a reason to automatically rule out MD schools. @artloversplus

6

@CottonTales
You are right, but the girl has taken one year of orgo with an average C combined with a cGpa of 3.6. That is the problem.

And time has changed from old days, now a day, the average gpa for lower ranked MD school is 3.7 eg: Howard, Rush and such. Even the new FOR Profit NCal med school has a similar GPA average.

7

@CottonTales

I think you’re thinking of IWBB. IWBB got a C on Ochem 1, but aced Ochem 2. He did very well and was admitted to MD/PhD program.

One C is a major pre-req isn’t a deal-breaker, but poor performance in BOTH semesters of ochem may be. (FWIW, D1 got into med school with a F in ecology & evolution so 1 bad grade isn’t a deal-breaker, but a pattern of poor performance–that will keep an applicant out of med school.)

@artloversplus – I know 518 is equivalent to a old MCAT 36. The student in question needs blow the doors off the MCAT to help relieve any concerns about her ability to perform well in med school level work if she wants a MD. A mediocre MCAT on top of Cs in key pre-reqs isn’t going to get her app noticed–except in a negative way.

The mean sGPA for DO matriculants in 2016 was 3.48. For AO, it was 3.65.
The OP’s daughter’s GPA is low for both MD and DO programs.

8

OTOH, she is a rising junior, she should be able to catch up her GPA and ECs within the remaining 2 years time. In Bio major, some times the higher level classes is easier to get As. She just cannot apply Med school in her Junior year.

9

@WayOutWestMom, yes, IWBB. Your memory and research skills are far superior to mine!

10

Thanks everyone for useful suggestions and honest insight. i have to say after reading all above i feel quite discouraged and disappointed but would still support my daughters sincere efforts as i know she is trying very hard and putting in her best efforts. Results may not be so favorable but hopefully something good will come out.
just little more background on my daughter:

  • She is at duke.
  • First year took no pre med science requisites as she was not inclined towards medicine career.
  • psychology major and global health minor
  • doing very good in major and minor subjects.
  • started taking pre med classes in 2nd year onwards.
  • doing research in psychology as part of major
  • volunteering at duke hospital
  • volunteered in under served community out of country last summer
  • started some clinical shadowing with physician at duke hospital recently as well
  • has been an RA during 2nd year and plans to do so remaining 2 years.
  • still needs to take biochem, statistics, one general chem class; she will do it between 3rd and 4 th year
  • Took calculus in high school and has credit for it that suffices for pre med requirement and she plans on taking stat.
  • needs to take physics but Duke only offers calculus based physics which i was not sure she should take as it will be real hard and also not helpful for MCAT based on how much i understand.
  • overall she has done reasonably well so far; mostly A or some B except for org chem that has really brought down her GPA since she has C in it. she tried very hard but it is really hard as she says.

Based on above i was questioning if she should take algebra based physics at home university which is not Duke but still decent university and not a community college?

what other higher level science classes can she take in remaining 2 years to boost her science GPA?
i will check into SMP programs as well.

Thanks everyone again.

11

Pre-med committee at Duke is necessary and great resource for your daughter.

12

It might and it might not.

Not all med schools will accept AP or IB credits to fulfill pre-reqs. And those that do accept AP/IB credits for pre-reqs require or strongly recommend (i.e. you’re not a competitive applicant without it) that applicants take supplemental credits in the same dept as the dept where the AP credits are awarded. IOW, if your D has 4 AP/IB credits for Calc 1, she may need to take another 4 math credits to meet admission requirements.

She needs to take physics at Duke and do well in it. She’s already has a a black mark against her with her Ochem grades so she needs to demonstrate she can compete successfully with her peers at her own undergrad.

Also Duke’s health professions committee may refuse to write her a letter of recommendation if she takes any of her pre-reqs at another college, particularly since she’s already earned Cs in both semesters of Ochem.

( FWIW, D2’s university also required all pre-meds to take calc-based physics–so that’s not unusual at competitive universities.)

The only classes that will boost her sGPA are upper level electives in bio, chem, physics or math.

Things like: embryology, molecular genetics, genomics, pharmacology, neuroscience, animal physiology, comparative anatomy, biochem 2, the genetics of disease, microbiology, cell signaling & disease, biophysics, advanced analytic chemistry, Pchem, Calc 2, calc 3, differential equations, thermal physics, quantum mechanics, optics, mechanics, non-linear dynamics, E&M.

This is one thing that non-science major pre-meds don’t often think about. They cannot afford any missteps when taking their pre-reqs because they have so few science credits it makes it much harder to recover from any poor grades.

13

Two more comments and I’m off to dinner & the movies–

  1. calc-based physics is not “really hard”–assuming one is competent in basic calculus. Calc-based physics covers the same exact material that algebra-based physics does, but it uses different mathematics to explain the observed physical phenomena. Much of classical mechanics (which is over 50% of first semester intro physics) is much cleaner and simpler to visualize and understand using calculus. (In fact, classical mechanics problems were why calculus was invented in the first place.) Waves/harmonic motion, E&M, optics and quantum mechanics (second semester intro physics) are also cleaner and simpler to explain and find solutions using calculus.

  2. And I mean in this in all kindness…not everyone is destined to go medical school no matter how much they want to. There are dozens of other healthcare professions that are honorable, challenging and noble in their own right.

Public health has probably improved/saved the lives of more people than anything a single physician could ever do.

Encourage your daughter’s medical school aspirations, but neither of you should fixate on it to the point that you and she don’t consider other options.

[Explore Health Careers](https://explorehealthcareers.org)

14

@Durga I agree with the suggestion that pre-med advising office at Duke is an important resource for your daughter, if she hasn’t been there already. I looked on the Duke pre-health advising site and it states:

“While Physics at Duke is Calculus based, medical schools have generally also accepted Algebra-based Physics classes, so you may decide to take Physics at another university in the summer. Be sure to consider your major, as some majors at Duke require Physics. If you don’t think you can manage Calculus-based Physics, talk with your health professions advisor about grades and choices.”

https://prehealth.duke.edu/prepare/course-requirements/physics

So it doesn’t seem to me that the pre-med committee would refuse to give your daughter a letter of recommendation if she chooses to take Algebra based Physics at another school. Your D should definitely talk to them.

My D (who is an M3) also attended an undergrad that only had Calculus based Physics. She had a completely miserable experience in Physics I, gutted it out for a B-, then took Algebra based Physics II (which fortunately covered the same topics as Physics II at her school) at a local 4 year college during the summer. She also struggled with the Physics portion of the MCAT, and after much angst (and money on a prep course) she decided to accept that she stunk at Physics and move on. She did well in the med school application process.

I’m not an expert, my experience is with one kid. But my point is that though many applicants and matriculants to med school are superstars, and hit every mark - high GPA, high one-and-done MCAT, along with all the requisite shadowing, volunteering and extracurriculars, there are also plenty of applicants who become med students who aren’t perfect. My D knows many in her class who like her had weaknesses in their app. that they overcame with strengths in other areas. Your D must do all that she can to put the best application together, but if Algebra based Physics would preserve her GPA, and it has the blessing of Duke pre-med advising, that may be a good choice. Because a lower GPA is definitely an application killer.

15

Thanks everyone for useful suggestions and honest insight. i have to say after reading all above i feel quite discouraged and disappointed but would still support my daughters sincere efforts as i know she is trying very hard and putting in her best efforts. Results may not be so favorable but hopefully something good will come out.
just little more background on my daughter:

  • She is at duke.
  • First year took no pre med science requisites as she was not inclined towards medicine career.
  • psychology major and global health minor
  • doing very good in major and minor subjects.
  • started taking pre med classes in 2nd year onwards.
  • doing research in psychology as part of major
  • volunteering at duke hospital
  • volunteered in under served community out of country last summer
  • started some clinical shadowing with physician at duke hospital recently as well
  • has been an RA during 2nd year and plans to do so remaining 2 years.
  • still needs to take biochem, statistics, one general chem class; she will do it between 3rd and 4 th year
  • Took calculus in high school and has credit for it that suffices for pre med requirement and she plans on taking stat.
  • needs to take physics but Duke only offers calculus based physics which i was not sure she should take as it will be real hard and also not helpful for MCAT based on how much i understand.
  • overall she has done reasonably well so far; mostly A or some B except for org chem that has really brought down her GPA since she has C in it. she tried very hard but it is really hard as she says.

Based on above i was questioning if she should take algebra based physics at home university which is not Duke but still decent university and not a community college?

what other higher level science classes can she take in remaining 2 years to boost her science GPA?
i will check into SMP programs as well.

Thanks everyone again.

16

Thanks everyone for useful suggestions and honest insight. i have to say after reading all above i feel quite discouraged and disappointed but would still support my daughters sincere efforts as i know she is trying very hard and putting in her best efforts. Results may not be so favorable but hopefully something good will come out.
just little more background on my daughter:

  • She is at duke.
  • First year took no pre med science requisites as she was not inclined towards medicine career.
  • psychology major and global health minor
  • doing very good in major and minor subjects.
  • started taking pre med classes in 2nd year onwards.
  • doing research in psychology as part of major
  • volunteering at duke hospital
  • volunteered in under served community out of country last summer
  • started some clinical shadowing with physician at duke hospital recently as well
  • has been an RA during 2nd year and plans to do so remaining 2 years.
  • still needs to take biochem, statistics, one general chem class; she will do it between 3rd and 4 th year
  • Took calculus in high school and has credit for it that suffices for pre med requirement and she plans on taking stat.
  • needs to take physics but Duke only offers calculus based physics which i was not sure she should take as it will be real hard and also not helpful for MCAT based on how much i understand.
  • overall she has done reasonably well so far; mostly A or some B except for org chem that has really brought down her GPA since she has C in it. she tried very hard but it is really hard as she says.

Based on above i was questioning if she should take algebra based physics at home university which is not Duke but still decent university and not a community college?

what other higher level science classes can she take in remaining 2 years to boost her science GPA?
i will check into SMP programs as well.

Thanks everyone again.

17

@durga I can’t add anything to your specific question, but to give you and your D some hope, S finished first year with GPAs below 3.2, he’s an MD. He did everything suggested above (eg, raise GPAs (especially BCPM), D must rock MCAT (including subtest scores), D must continue to add to meaningful premed ECs (not just a checklist), must apply broadly (Note: all US med schools are good schools), wait to apply until at earliest after senior year in order to maximize opportunities to raise GPA, prep for MCAT, participate ECs, etc.

D needs to apply with strongest app in all respects possible. The competition is fierce at all med schools, 60% of those that apply fail to start anywhere. Good luck.

18

Like @Jugulator20 son and @dheldreth daughter, D1 was never the superstar perfect applicant. (Her younger sister was always the pony to bet on. ;:wink: ) D1 had a F in an ecology class she took as an upperclassmen (she forgot to drop the class!) and her freshman GPA that was below 3.2.

She did what I (and others) have recommended here: she plugged away, learned from her mistakes, improved her GPA & sGPA by earning lots & lots of As in challenging upper level sciences & math, was continuously engaged in meaningful ECs and blew the doors off the MCAT. She applied broadly and, as she put it, she got lucky.

It can be done, but the OP’s daughter needs to double down on the science & math classes. Her sGPA is in a bad place and it’s going to take significant effort and a number of As in BCPM classes (probably in the range of 6-8 to raise her sGPA to 3.5) to overcome that. As a non-science major with a non-science minor, this means she will need to find space in her schedule to take LOTS of UL sciences that won’t give her graduation credits for her major or minor.

The OP’s daughter definitely needs to have serious chat with pre-med advising at Duke to see where she stands with them and whether or not Duke will endorse her med school application.

If Duke won’t, perhaps the OP’s daughter best course of action may be to put pre-med on the back burner, finish her degree, graduate, work in a medically related job and enroll in a career-changer post-bacc.