<p>Let me ask you something. Is amherst similar to JHU? is amherst a university with a medical school? I want you to look into the policies of ivy schools. I do however understand your view. The school's rec cannot by itself exclude you from acceptance from an med school. But at the same token, if you have earned a 3.0 (below JHU's average GPA), should JHU give the applicant its full support merely because the applicant has paid 40k per year to study there? While some may say yes, this cannot occur as the validity of JHU's recommendation would be severely compromised. As stated in the article, schools take JHU's rec very seriously.Once again the institution will not stop you from applying. And those who are likely to apply for the hell of it despite lower gpas are likely not to listen to the advice of these advisors anyways (ive seen it first hand). JHU's acceptance rate comes not from advisors dissauding such students but because of the difficult premed courses that make premeds honestly assess themselves before the process. Its often heard that 25% of those who start off as premed end up as premed. This is hardly the result of these advisors but as a result of the difficulty of the curriculum at hopkins. In the end no one gets "lucky" when getting in to med schools. Its a thorough process. Those who get in do deserve it as there is a thorough interview process with other factors such as recs and mcat scores taken into account. The bottomline is if one's dream is to become a doctor and they are easily dissauded by an advisor telling them their chances are low and subsequently drop their pursuit of said dream without internal fortitude, they do not deserve to become a doctor as it is one of the most pressing, challenging, and stressful jobs out there.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The bottomline is if one's dream is to become a doctor and they are easily dissauded by an advisor telling them their chances are low and subsequently drop their pursuit of said dream without internal fortitude, they do not deserve to become a doctor as it is one of the most pressing, challenging, and stressful jobs out there.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Or maybe they should have gone to a more supportive place. Collegiate's attitude seems to be you should apply in spite of roadblocks your college puts up. The alternative is to go somewhere that does not place such a priority on throwing up roadblocks in the first place.</p>
<p>The most disturbing thing is Collegiate's claim to have worked in the premed office. If this is true, it explains a lot.</p>
<p>Collegiate, I think you are taking a rapidly boxing yourself into a minority position with which very few people would agree with. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Is amherst similar to JHU? is amherst a university with a medical school?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I fail to see how that is relevant. So Amherst doesn't have a medical school. So what? What does that have to do with anything? Are you saying that if your university has a medical school, you automatically have to run your premed rec process differently? After all, Amherst premeds seem to enjoy high rates of success in getting into med-school, so it's not like Amherst premeds are poorly qualified. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I want you to look into the policies of ivy schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What I can tell you is that the policy of, say, Princeton University, is that they will basicaly write a positive letter for anybody who wants one, and require no interview or anything comparable to the JHU rec process. If you don't believe me, we can write a joint email to Princeton and ask them what their policy is regarding premed certification/rec letters, and we can post their reply here. </p>
<p>
[quote]
But at the same token, if you have earned a 3.0 (below JHU's average GPA), should JHU give the applicant its full support merely because the applicant has paid 40k per year to study there?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nobody is advocating that the JHU rec committee should lie. On the other hand, it should be up to the individual student whether he/she wants to try to submit a rec from the committee. If the committee feels that it cannot honestly endorse the candidacy of a particular student, then the committee should tell the student that, and the student can choose to try to get rec's elsewhere. </p>
<p>The specific problem I, Sam Lee, and afan have is that the student is forced to get a rec from the committee even if it turns out to be a bad rec. Why? I'm not asking for the committee to lie or otherwise compromise its integrity. If the committee doesn't want to give a good rec to a candidate, fine, don't do it. But let that candidate get a rec somewhere else. </p>
<p>It follows the old axiom that you shouldn't go around talking bad about people - that if you can't say anything good about somebody, better to not say anything at all. More specifically, you may remember back in high school how you had to get rec's from teachers. Obviously everybody went to the teachers that liked them the best and could thus write them the best rec's. Nobody went to get a rec from a teacher that didn't like them. And if a teacher felt that he/she could not in good conscience write a positive rec for somebody, then the professional and courteous thing to do is tell the student that, so the student can then get a rec from somebody else. But I think it is the position of myself, Sam Lee, and Afan that students shouldn't be forced to get rec's from somebody who doesn't want to endorse them. </p>
<p>
[quote]
While some may say yes, this cannot occur as the validity of JHU's recommendation would be severely compromised. As stated in the article, schools take JHU's rec very seriously.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Again, nobody is saying that JHU should submit false rec's. However, a much more humane process is perhaps for Fishbein, Savage, and everybody else on the committee to act in a pure advisory/consulting role. Premeds can go to them and ask what their chances are, and the committee can assess. Then, a premed has the option to go to Fishbein, Savage, etc. and ask for a formal recommendation. If they feel they cannot give it, then they say so, and the candidate has the option can go get recs from other people. That gives the students maximum freedom while still preserving the integrity of the endorsal process. No false endorsements are ever created. The committee never endorses anybody that it doesn't want to endorse. Yet at the same time, students are still allowed to construct the best application they can. Nobody is forced to use a lukewarm rec. </p>
<p>
[quote]
In the end no one gets "lucky" when getting in to med schools. Its a thorough process. Those who get in do deserve it as there is a thorough interview process with other factors such as recs and mcat scores taken into account.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm afraid I have to disagree. The fact is, the admissions process is not perfect. There is in fact some luck involved. Some people do indeed get admitted when maybe they shouldn't be. Surely you are not taking the position that the process is 100% perfect. This is a people-driven process, created and run by people, and people are not perfect. </p>
<p>
[quote]
The bottomline is if one's dream is to become a doctor and they are easily dissauded by an advisor telling them their chances are low and subsequently drop their pursuit of said dream without internal fortitude...
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</p>
<p>Again, this is not the sticking point. The sticking point is that the advisors force students to get a rec from the committee, even if it's a bad one. Like I said, I think it should be your choice whether you want to get a rec from the committee or not. If the committee feels it cannnot write you a good rec, then you should be free to get a rec from somebody else. If Fishbein feels he cannot write me a good rec, then I should be allowed to submit a rec from some other prof who will write me a good one.</p>
<p>It's one thing to advise a poor candidate that he should probably not be applying. It's quite another thing to then actively damage that candidate's chances of admission if he does apply. That's what being forced to take a rec from Fishbein and company, even if it's a bad one, effectively is. You said that the admissions process will figure out who the bad candidates are and will reject them accordingly. Well, if that's really true, then there's no need for the committee to write bad rec's anyway. So what's the point of writing a bad rec at all? If you can't write a good rec, then don't write any rec at all.</p>
<p>I will clarify once more. The committee's rec while not wholly positive will not be a negative attack on the applicant's abilities. While it does not state JHU full supports said applicant, it in no way shape or form discredits the applicant's abilities strictly based on his/her academic credentials. While some may argue it is a negative rec based on the potential positive views of the applicant such a letter precludes, it is still a "neutral" rec. Perhaps that was not clear from my past posts. Anyways, this can be counterbalanced by proper and positive recs from faculty members and the advisors themselves. JHU's advisors are supportive but at the same time they provide realistic views, like it or not. From my time at this office, it seems JHU wants to do one thing only and that is provide you a realistic view of the process and med school life. My view may seem like the minority, but i ask you, what are your credentials (not just you but the other posters you cited)? This may sound like propaganda but JHU honestly cares for its students. For alot of the numerous weak applicants out there, JHU does not merely say you can't apply now. Rather they suggest different options to improve their chances as opposed to applying that instant with weaker chances. Advisors are active in finding students volunteering activities and research opportunities in a potential year off to improve chances. They do not leave applicants hanging.
I have friends at ivies and am well aware of the policies there despite what may or may not be formally posted as policy. Again I suggest you look into this.</p>
<p>afan, the most disturbing thing is the fact that you have not provided a concise logical argument. Rather you sit there making idle and completely pointless remarks/comments. maybe you can learn a thing or two from sakky?</p>
<p>Does Duke have grade inflation in its pre-med courses? I know JHU doesn't in anything and I know Duke does but I am concerned if there are any within the science courses, i.e. organic chem, bio..?</p>
<p>JHU has no grade inflation. Average grades in the science courses are a B.</p>
<p>is it a really riduculous idea of coming to JHU for pre-med unless you have been that AP science student in high school with national awards? I know that JHU is great and as a grad school, it would be a dream to attend the med school, but I simply want to do well and get by without the hassle/difficulty of 'no grade inflation' and a 'screening process' that some colleges offer. I am not saying anything about JHU, I mean anywhere I go, I will work the hardest, I am not seeking this attitude of slacking off or anything, but in comparision with Duke or Northwestern, I feel like I can get the overall package.</p>
<p>Work hard and that A is attainable. And considering JHU has no grade inflation along with the reputation of the undergrad school and the premed program, a lower gpa will receive more understanding by top med schools compared to lower gpas from other schools. You should visit. Sometimes a school's atmosphere will click with you.</p>
<p>well it is dangerous, i just dont wanna get killed by no thugs, u kno wha I mean? I aint think I got enough street credit to front with them homies.</p>
<p>Thats all</p>
<p>Are you being serious? because I will cap you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I have friends at ivies and am well aware of the policies there despite what may or may not be formally posted as policy. Again I suggest you look into this.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>From what I've seen, the Ivies basically give nothing but a positive committee letter to any premed who wants it. </p>
<p>But in any case, let's not waste time arguing about this point. Instead, let's nominate one or more Ivies and together, we can write a joint email to the premed office at those Ivy and ask what the procedure is for a premed to obtain a certification letter, and whether it is comparable to the JHU procedure. Then whatever reply we get from them, we will reprint it here. That will get us a far better answer than relying on either of our anecdotes. </p>
<p>
[quote]
While it does not state JHU full supports said applicant, it in no way shape or form discredits the applicant's abilities strictly based on his/her academic credentials. While some may argue it is a negative rec based on the potential positive views of the applicant such a letter precludes, it is still a "neutral" rec
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But as I said, it should be up to the applicants whether they wants to use that rec or not. If that applicant, for whatever reason, feels that the rec is a negative one, or not as positive as it needs to be, or whatever you want to call it, then the applicant should be free to choose not to use it. In other words, the applicant should be free to construct the best possible application he/she can. </p>
<p>Look, let's talk frankly here. You know and I know that the application process has a lot to do with self-marketing and self-promotion. It's like advertising. Advertisers try to present their product in the best possible light, showcasing the product's best features. Advertising is basically about making your product look as good as it possibly can without lying. We both know that the same sort of thing happens in an admissions process. Applicants try to present themselves in the best possible light -i.e. getting recs from only their favorite teachers (and not from teachers who didn't like them), writing essay answers that highlight your best features, highlighting what makes you different from other candidates, giving interview answers that put you in the best possible light, etc. In other words, self-promotion and self-marketing are inherent parts of the admissions process. You are trying to make yourself look as good as you can to the admissions committee. That's part of the game. </p>
<p>In fact, I think we can agree that self-promotion and self-marketing played a role in undergrad admssions at JHU. Those high school seniors that put together an application that really marketed and showcased them well had a increased chance of getting admitted to JHU. </p>
<p>So the point is that I believe applicants should be free to pick and choose whatever he wants to market himself in the manner he sees fit in order to maximize his chances of getting into med-school. JHU should not be making extra mandatory rules. If med-schools do not require a recommendation from Fishbein, then JHU should not force everybody to get one. An applicant should be able to choose to get a rec from Fishbein, but the applicant should also be free to not get a rec from Fishbein. As a high school senior, you were allowed to choose who was going to write your rec's. The school didn't force everybody to get a rec from a specific person or a specific committee. You had the freedom to choose whose rec's you were going to use, so that you could market yourself in the best possible light. I don't see why JHU premeds should be denied that same freedom. Let them construct an application that puts them in the best possible light.</p>
<p>You are placing too much emphasis on this letter. What does JHU have to gain by giving an applicant a negative rec? You or the applicant might think a neutral rec is bad, and although it does not fully market the applicant in the best light, it is something credited med schools look for from JHU. The fact is med schools trust JHU's reputation and as a result values its recommendation. If such a letter was declared optional and or was replaced by an extra rec letter from a faculty member, trust me, med schools would notice as it is something that is expected. In the end, although JHU may not fully support an applicant, the neutral rec really does nothing to hurt his/her chances but it doesn't enhance their chances unless they had a suitable gpa to begin with. JHU has earned its reputation as a premed factory due to its reputation. The case may not be the same at other schools but there are respective benefits/negatives attached to each case.</p>
<p>collegiate has a valid point: The case may not be the same at other schools but there are respective benefits/negatives attached to each case.</p>
<p>-The thing is, JHU is one of THE BEST. Pretty much, if you have a good GPA, the letter from JHU officers (i.e. Fishbein), that rec places a greater value than getting an ordinary letter from Cornell or Duke when you compare two individuals with same stats. Because medical schools recognizes this unique process at JHU, they would give more preference to JHU candidates who receive such a positive rec because they realized that this thorough, meticulous premed process is unlike any of the other college's processes. Thus I think the quality of a top notch pre-med process such as JHU or even Harvard is what is unique about these schools that have the screening processes.</p>
<p>However Collegiate, the problem wiht Hopkins is that only the strongest survive and that is the really top med school candidates. Thus only really good candidates receive such a high positive recc from JHU, which I feel where the problem lies. You have to be a great science genius to succeed, while at other ivies, you can do perhaps not so qualified and still get a good recc., but at Hopkins, you'll get a neutral/bad recc.</p>
<p>I hope this clears the argument. Personally, Duke is my choice for an overall experience.</p>
<p>collegiate,</p>
<p>It's really not my business to tell what JHU should do. My point, however, is that the admit rate that JHU like bragging about is the rate based on some kind of "prescreening" process. Even though a student with marginal GPA can still apply if he/she insists; I am sure many less qualified ones would drop out once they realize the committee isn't supportive and enthusistic about their application. The good side of this process is if you find yourself being fully endorsed by the committee, you'd feel pretty good about your chance.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For many undergrads, however, seeking guidance from Fishbein and Savage can be an intimidating, sometimes negative encounter.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
"I feel that they try to demean people who's grades are marginal in order to convince them not to go to medical school," he said. The result is, said Gutterman, that people who could get in marginally with a 3.2 do not even apply. "They think people won't get in, but I personally know people who've gotten in with a sub-3 GPA and sub-30 MCATs."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
A few premeds expressed their concern that the GPA and MCAT requirements held by Fishbein and Savage are merely an effort to maintain the high admit-rate of Hopkins premeds to medical school, and to uphold the extreme integrity of the Hopkins recommendation letter.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think everyone sees the recurring theme. I am sure if Amherst/Chicago..etc does what JHU does, its admit rate would be much higher. After all, Amherst does show that for the more qualifed group, the admit rate was 87%, not much lower than JHU's and much higher than 73% overall.</p>
<p>Hey, hold the phone now. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the best JHU students shouldn't continue to get one of those strong rec letters from Fishbein and company. I fully support that. I think that's a great idea that boosts the odds for the top JHU premeds. </p>
<p>What bothers me is the policy that ALL JHU premeds, including the substandard ones, are forced to get a rec from Fishbein and company. I think that should be up to the student. If you're a strong premed and you think you can get a super rec from Fishbein and you want to use it, then by all means do so. But if for whatever reason you don't want to use the Fishbein rec, then you shouldn't be forced to use it. JHU should just supply that student with a form letter then. Yeah, I agree, that form letter probably doesn't look as good as a strong rec from Fishbein. But the point is that the student gets to choose which rec to present. You might say that the student is making a stupid choice, but hey, these are grown adults here, and they're allowed to make choices that we think are stupid. </p>
<p>Personally, I think what should happen is that Fishbein and company should serve only in an advisory role. Form letters should be given to all JHU premeds, the way that Ivies do now. However, Fishbein et al should make themselves available to consult and review the candidacies of all willing premeds. Those premeds who are strong would be offered a strong Fishbein rec, just like what happens now. But the point is, there would be no coercion, or the appearance of coercion. Nobody would be forced to use a rec that they really don't want to use. If a guy decides he really doesn't want to use the Fishbein rec, why force him? </p>
<p>
[quote]
If such a letter was declared optional and or was replaced by an extra rec letter from a faculty member, trust me, med schools would notice as it is something that is expected.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This I find to be highly dubious. I agree that some med-schools, particularly the top med-schools, would probably notice. On the other hand, there are 125 certified M.D. schools and 20 or so certified OD schools in the US. I think we can all agree that not every one of them is familiar with the JHU recommendation process. The top schools that get lots of JHU applicants every year, sure. But the lower tiers? I don't think so. I think it's safe to say that some of those schools haven't had a single JHU applicant in years. Some of the other ones may only get a handful every so often. So how familiar do you really think those schools are with the JHU process? Think about it, honestly, how many JHU premeds apply to, say, the Des Moines University College of Osteopathic Medicine every year? Probably not a lot. So if JHU were to start using form letters instead of the Fishbein rec, honestly do you think they would really notice?</p>
<p>Well my complaint is not the practice of the committee letters, but the apparent obstructionist attitude. Having recommendations come from a committee could be quite helpful to the admissions committee, if they provided additional relevant information. However, I get the sense that this process divides the applicants into high probability and low probability groups, and the committee letters simply reinforce this conclusion. I can see the student's MCAT's and grades, I don't need a committee to tell me that 42 and 3.9 means high likelihood of admission and 27 and 3.2 mean poor prospects. Tell me something about this kid that I do not know. I am not really interested in the committee's opinion about whether the student should be a doctor unless there is something really unique about her/him. Perhaps there is. Perhaps the remainder of the application does not really convey the depth of the student's commitment to service, or her talent for research. Then tell me that. But don't waste my time just repeating the numerical information. </p>
<p>Requiring students to get the letters also ensures that every med school applicant is followed by the premed office, and that they do not slip through the cracks. The question is whether the premed office serves as an advocate for the students, or a gatekeeper. If an advocate, then the required letters can be helpful. If a gatekeeper, then it is harmful to all but the top applicants. </p>
<p>I have a problem with the notion that the committee will determine which students "deserve" to be doctors, as Collegiate puts it. Who are they to decide who deserves to be a doctor? Yes, I would like to be warned about someone who barely made it through, with good grades but lots of questions about his honesty. Or someone who was hostile and abusive in her clinic experiences. But these cases are rare. </p>
<p>The premed office should not take the attitude that "We decide who deserves to be a doctor, and these are the only people we support. We tell the others not to apply. If they ignore our advice, then our letter will reflect our annoyance with them." Instead the office should have the attitude that "We help every student who wants to apply. We provide advice on mechanics of the application process, strategy, and prospects for admission. If a student's chances are poor, we tell them that, and give them advice as to what they can do to improve them. In theory, if we had a student who was dishonest, unbalanced, or for some other reason unsuitable for the practice of medicine we would withhold our endorsement, but fortunately this has not come up. With that exception, we support any student who wants to apply. We have great students and they make great doctors." Which office would you rather approach as you contemplated applying to medical school?</p>
<p>This has nothing to do with how much one pays in tuition. </p>
<p>In case you don't know, you need a sky high GPA and excellent MCAT scores to be a good med school applicant, but not to be a good doctor. GPA and MCAT predict med school grades in basic science courses quite well, but they are nearly useless in predicting how good a doctor someone will be. So selecting people who "deserve" to go to medical school on this basis will give you a class of people who get good basic science grades, but not necessarily anything of importance. </p>
<p>Since there is a substantial element of chance in admissions, acceptance rates that are very high mean that only sure bets are applying. It would be perfectly reasonable for an individual, told that she has only a 50-50 chance at admissions, to decide not to bother. But to get admissions rates in the 90's, one must be discouraging lots of people whose chances are in the 80's. If admissions were perfectly predictable, then the admissions rate should be 100%, everyone who applies does so knowing they will get in, and everyone else knows they will not be admitted, so they do not waste their time. In reality, there is a wide zone of uncertainty. So to get the success rate up that high, lots of people with good chances must be deciding not to apply. This may be because THE STUDENTS decide that it is not worth the time, effort, and psychological risk to apply if success probability is below 95%. Fine. But it should not be school policy to attempt to enforce such a standard. </p>
<p>For these reasons, I am worried about places with extremely high success rates. Some of them may simply have highly risk-averse student bodies. Students are told their success probability is 85% and they do not apply. Other schools are practicing some version of active discouragement of applications from lower probability applicants.</p>
<p>The most honest thing a college could do is to emulate Cornell. Post a table of the success rates as a function of GPA and MCAT scores. Students can see where they stand on this data and make up their own minds. For some kids the threshold for "worth the trouble" will be 90%, for others it will be 30%. This is a decision for the student, not for the school.</p>
<p>Good reply Afan. I finally understand your point of view along with sakkys. What you are referring to about cornell is offered to JHU premeds internally. But anyways, you guys should check out <a href="http://www.mdapplicants.com%5B/url%5D">www.mdapplicants.com</a> , it definitely shows low scoring JHU premeds who continued with the process and succeeded. I will first address Sakky. Sakky, our conversation is revolving around top medical schools anyways is it not? These are the schools that require the most amount of applicant marketing as you pointed out earlier. There are alot of US med schools (with MCATs that average at around 21) out there that the average and below average jhu premed can obtain a spot at but refuses to apply to. Ofcourse these med schools are not ones JHU premeds typically apply to. They are gunning for the top with Harvard, JHU, Wustl, Upenn along with their respective state schools as potential choices. This is evidenced by Wall Street Journal's ranking of top feeder schools to top med/business/law schools which you can surely look up. Considering each premed is advised to apply to their state school along with other privates, its a surefire bet that numerous desirable state schools are quite acclimated with JHU's process further enhancing the knowledge of JHU's rec process. I do agree however that there are other schools out there that may be unfamiliar to JHU's process but theses are typically not schools JHU premeds apply to in groups atleast. As for your view on students having a choice, I must admit it is an interesting view. However, JHU premeds who perceive the rec letter as negative by it excluding positives are misguided. They can balance it nonetheless with a supplemental faculty guide. The point is this letter by itself as ive stated numerous times before will not make or break the applicant. It will come down to his/her overall GPA, BCPM GPA, MCAT score,personal statements, volunteering, research ability, work experience, interview and a variety of other factors that are considered in medical school admissions. Now to address Afan, the advisors do not obstruct students as stated before. I understand your disapproval of how the advisors may be overstepping their boundaries in dissuading potential applicants but they cannot stop the applicant from applying and they cannot ruin their chances with an average committee rec. They will NEVER outright tell an applicant that they cannot or should not become a doctor. Ive seen instances where the applicants had sub 20 MCAT scores and sub 3.0 GPAs. What these applicants were told was to not apply now but to apply later after improving their qualifications for an acceptance into a potentially better medical school or any med school rather than what they would have achieved had they applied at that instant. Although those words may appear harsh to some as an off year may be a hard concept for an excited premed, it is in the best interest of the student. JHU does not care nor does it artifically inflate its acceptance rate by actually barring students from applying nor do they completely dissuade poor applicants from applying. Rather they merely attempt to improve the applicants credentials and subsequently his/her chances so it reflects better on the institution and the applicant. When an extremely poor quality applicant applies to med schools, JHU's reputation suffers by sponsoring such an applicant at all and this reflects badly on the applicants part as it shows immaturity throughout the process. But this readiness and commitment can only be judged in part by the applicant him/herself and not by outsiders such as us. In the end JHU wants what is best for its students although it may appear such dissuasion may seem like a selfish attempt at improving its image. JHU merely wants applicants to maximize their chances and presentation. If such a simple letter portrays or the fact that advisors are telling students to do ther things to improve their situation are contradictions to what the institution is trying to do when advising such students, then so be it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sakky, our conversation is revolving around top medical schools anyways is it not? These are the schools that require the most amount of applicant marketing as you pointed out earlier.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, I can't speak for Sam Lee, afan, or anybody else, but I was not necessarily talking only about top medical schools. In fact, for the most part, my part of the discussion revolves around no-name med-schools. After all, let's face it. Those JHU premeds who are viable candidates to get into the top med-schools are the ones who have top grades and MCAT scores, and are thus the very students who Fishbein and company would be most happy to recommend. So to them, the present system works fine.</p>
<p>However, what I'm really referring to are those JHU premeds who won't get a good rec from Fishbein, which tend to be the weaker students, and the fact is, these students aren't going to be admitted by the top med-schools no matter what. Hence, if any med-school is going to admit them, it is going to be one of the lower-tier ones. And it is precisely these lower-tier schools that don't get a lot of JHU applicants and therefore will have no idea whether JHU changes its rec policy or not. </p>
<p>
[quote]
There are alot of US med schools (with MCATs that average at around 21) out there that the average and below average jhu premed can obtain a spot at but refuses to apply to. Ofcourse these med schools are not ones JHU premeds typically apply to. They are gunning for the top with Harvard, JHU, Wustl, Upenn along with their respective state schools as potential choices. This is evidenced by Wall Street Journal's ranking of top feeder schools to top med/business/law schools which you can surely look up. Considering each premed is advised to apply to their state school along with other privates, its a surefire bet that numerous desirable state schools are quite acclimated with JHU's process further enhancing the knowledge of JHU's rec process. I do agree however that there are other schools out there that may be unfamiliar to JHU's process but theses are typically not schools JHU premeds apply to in groups atleast.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Then that just tells me that there is another opportunity for JHU to improve its advising services. If what you're saying is true (and I suspect that it is true), then that basically means that some JHU premeds are applying to schools that are out of their league, and ought to be applying to schools that are more at their level. </p>
<p>Hence what Fishbein could say is something like 'Look, I cannot in good conscience endorse you for Harvard, so if you want to apply to Harvard, you should take the form letter. However I will happily write you a great rec endorsing you to go to 'X' no-name school, because I believe that you would be a very strong candidate at that school." Something like that. In that way, the committee would advise (but not force) students on the optimal pathway to success. If the student ignores the advice, then that's the student's choice. But it's better to get into a no-name medical school than not to get into any med-school at all. </p>
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As for your view on students having a choice, I must admit it is an interesting view. However, JHU premeds who perceive the rec letter as negative by it excluding positives are misguided. They can balance it nonetheless with a supplemental faculty guide. The point is this letter by itself as ive stated numerous times before will not make or break the applicant. It will come down to his/her overall GPA, BCPM GPA, MCAT score,personal statements, volunteering, research ability, work experience, interview and a variety of other factors that are considered in medical school admissions.
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<p>Fair enough, but again, I think that ultimately, the students should be the one to make the choice over what rec to use. If you think the students are being stupid, well, they're grown adults and they have the right to make stupid decisions. I have no problem with JHU advising students on what they think the students should do. In fact, that's very valuable. However, at the end of the day, it's the student that should be the one to decide what goes in his/her application, not the school. It's the job of the school to educate and advise, but not to compel. </p>
<p>I have to echo what afan said: "I have a problem with the notion that the committee will determine which students "deserve" to be doctors, as Collegiate puts it. Who are they to decide who deserves to be a doctor?" That's exactly right. Fishbein was a med-school dean before, but he isn't anymore. So he has no right to decide who 'deserves' to be doctors anymore. Only the individual med-school adcoms have the right to decide who should an who shouldn't be allowed into their med-school. JHU should not be trying to make their decisions for them. JHU students should not feel that they will be threatened with a bad rec letter if they do not follow the marching orders of the premed office. </p>
<p>Yes, I know, both the office and you, collegiate, have said that the office will not bar anybody from applying who wants to apply, but as stated in the article, we see that there is certainly an element of fear-factor associated with the premed office and the students, particularly the weaker students. That's not the way it should be. I don't think it does any good for anybody for JHU students to fear their own premed office.</p>
<p>does the hopkins committee look at GPA's differently for BME students since technically their coursework is somewhat tougher</p>