Our daughter was admitted to Notre Dame and is planning on a major such as biology with the intent on possibly applying to medical school. She was not notified that she will be considered for Merit and we definitely will not receive any financial aid. We feel that paying $67,000 would be a very high price to pay for an undergraduate education. Can anyone comment on the added benefit of premed at Notre Dame. We can afford this but it will delay our retirement.
If she got into Notre Dame I would venture to say she is getting great offers from other schools. DS was waitlisted from ND last year but received generous offers elsewhere and goes to Tulane now. He’s also premed and didn’t want to overspend on undergraduate.
ND certainly is one of the best at this. Because first they start with tons of very smart and motivated kids. And second they advise those kids very very well. End result is that ND is one of the top schools (per capita) for producing med school applicants, and about 80% of those kids admitted to med school. So ND produces a lot of doctors year in, year out.
But that doesn’t mean your kid is more likely to get into med school by going to ND vs. another school, or that ND is necessarily worth paying full price for. Because you have no way to know if your kid will be left still standing at the end of the grueling grind to even be in a position to credibly apply to med school. All schools have a huge drop off (much of which is realistic self-selection by the student) from the frosh incoming pre-meds to the senior year actual med school applicants.
So I don’t think you should pay up for any school primarily on the basis of its pre-med track record being slightly better than some other school’s. Because there’s a good chance your kid will be going pro in something other than medicine regardless. Pick a school that is a great fit for your kid if they stick with pre-med and also if they don’t (which is very likely). Pay up for ND if your kid really really loves ND and you think the overall ND experience will be superior in terms of their personal development.
Frankly, most top 50 mid-sized private universities put lots and lots of kids into med school every year. Some do a bit better than others (Harvard – 95% admit rate; Rice 90%). But a lot of the success is due to the inputs (i.e., lots of smart kids enroll at those schools). See data below.
If you are just focusing on med school admit chances for the dollars spent, the best deal isn’t going to be any place at full sticker price. It will be at the school where your kid could get a merit scholarship (Vandy, Rice, Emory, USC, WUSTL, Miami, Tulane, BU, Case) and where the GPA competition might be a bit less intense. Probably not worth paying full sticker for ND’s 80% admit rate as compared to a discounted deal (if your kid is lucky enough to get one) at Emory (70%) or Tulane (58%).
The other good deal is likely your state flagship at in-state rates (depending on where you live). The attached data show that the usual suspect high end publics are quite good at this as well.
https://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/threads/the-most-premedical-universities.1129360/
This is the situation you summarized: Your child hasn’t settled on a major and might consider premed.
In all likelihood, she will not be going to med school, because 75% high school students who are thinking of med school find other professional paths. At that point, which colleges among those she likes and that you can afford will provide her with the most opportunities for successful launching?
Excellent advice, perspective and comments! So much appreciated!
If she wants to get into med school she has a greater chance from ND than from most schools.
College is more than just getting into med school. If you can afford it ND is worth it for the rest of her life, not just the next 4 years.
I guess that is the question. I hear so much that it is such a great experience that will be part of your future, too. I just don’t know whether it is so impactful to be worth the full price.
Green – so what are the alternatives to $275k for ND?
@steveo87 although ND is a great school (I hope to be accepted as I applied regular) I do not think that paying full price is worth it. UNC has a 90% med school admit rate for much much less and Tulane has a 70%, mostly likely offering merit money. As someone said to me in a thread “Think first about costs! All of the schools you mention are top tier and work great for any medical school. The college preparation for medical is simple and ANY college, even that average one you did not apply to, will do. You can major in anything you want to- all nonsciences included. You need some basic chemistry, biology, math skills. You do not need any anatomy, medical terminology, etc. classes. You will be taught the medical school basic sciences there. Medical school biochemistry and pharmacology uses that basic chemistry knowledge required. It does not require a chemistry or biochemistry degree. Likewise other sciences.” You do not need to completely drain your savings for a basic premed education when many other state schools will offer the same education for much cheaper, leaving you extra money for those expensive medical school bills.
Here is some more information someone gave me on a thread that maybe your daughter will find useful:
"Figure out family finances. You want zero debt before medical school. Most physicians do not have wealthy parents (I did not) and most will not work or get free money for medical school (scholarships/grants). Most of us go to the medical school we do because that’s the one we got into (often the instate options) and it is most affordable. Residency may be the time to choose location.
What if you do not get into any medical school? Then what? What if you change your mind? You need to go to a school you will enjoy for both the academics (your major and other classes) and the campus culture. You need a plan B other than medical school. Only YOU can decide which school seems like the best fit for you.
Get rid of medical school plans for now (ie this spring) and choose the option that is best for NOW. You will be happiest and then do your best work if you like where you are. You will need to be engaged in your classes. The quickest way to lose points with any grad student/TA is to have the attitude you are not really interested in their chosen field but only using it as a stepping stone for medical school. Pick a college major you can be passionate about, even if only as an undergrad."
^ the issue indeed is that most freshmen-would-be-doctors don’t end up being able to apply* to med school, so you have to weigh two different things: odds right off the bat (is the student top 25% at the school, does s/he have a strong foundation in science, superb time management skills and experience, ie., CNA, EMT, volunteering in clinics or medical centers…) and risk if the student doesn’t make it (will a degree from that university serve them well as is).
It’s thus best to decide without the idea of med school. Pick the best fit that you can afford without problem (no parental loans, no HELOC, no pushing retirement back to 70).
As for value, it’s hard to measure. Notre Dame, for the right person, can be a life changing experience. For others, it can be too much - too athletic, too Catholic, too traditional, whatever. It’s a culture and it creates fierce loyalty. So, is it “worth it”? No one can answer that.
@greentravel : do you have to money to pay for Notre Dame without parental loans? Did you tell your child that if she applied, not to worry about costs and are now having “cold feet” - what did you say when she applied? Had to run the NPC? What are the alternatives and their net cost?
- Which is why the med school admit rate is meaningless for HS seniors: it's not 90 or 70% freshmen premeds who get into med school, but 90 or 70% of the ones who make it through the premed gauntlet and, sometimes, of those recommended by the faculty... Basically, the question to ask the Pre Health Committee/Advisers: Do you write Committee letters? If so, do you write them for all premeds or only some?
Worth it. ND is for life, and she will likely change her major (most do). My daughter did end up in Medical school and I can say that ND does an excellent job of preparing them to get in and to do well once there. She also had an unbelievable 4 year experience that can’t be traded. Just for thought~ She didn’t get any aid year 1, but did get a little in the subsequent years…
Great comments above.
A kid that can grind through pre-med at ND and get ultimately accepted to med school is very likely the same kind of kid that would get accepted to med school from Tulane or UNC.
The main differences would be (i) Tulane or UNC would probably cost half of what ND does, (ii) the pre-med counseling at ND will likely be a bit more high touch, so the Tulane/UNC kid would have to do a bit more on their own, and (iii) the kid will have the undergrad and alumni experience of ND vs. Tulane vs. UNC (either as a future doctor or as a future something else).
So bottom line – given your kid and your financial situation, do you want to spend $140k to get (iii)? Very personal decision and mostly unrelated to med school.
A belated thanks to all for the great perspectives…she has been awarded merit scholarships at colleges such as Fairfield, Xavier and Case Western which would result in paying less than half the cost of Notre Dame.
I have a relative who is a retired medical school president & author of a major medical textbook. Although now retired for several years, he told me that all his admissions folks cared about was an applicant’s GPA & not where they attended college.
@greentravel: The trouble with counseling another regarding Notre Dame is that it is a very special opportunity without equal to many.
Based on cost, $70,000 a year for an undergraduate degree is unwise for one intending to go on to graduate school & not from a top 1% income family.
However, telling one to forego the Notre Dame experience is similar to trying to convince one to say no to Harvard or Princeton.
OP, what did you tell her before she applied? Did you set any type of budget?
We are an ND family. I have a family member that paid full price for ND and Medical School. He is still paying off his loans nearly 20 years later. He is a family practice doctor. I think this also depends on the type of medicine. I know the student loans have been hard on him, especially as his kids grow and are entering high school themselves. I think it’s easy to say that there is no price to put on the “ND Experience” but the reality is there will be a time when the bill needs to be paid. I don’t think this family member regrets ND…he loves ND…but it comes with financial stressors.
We explained to her when she was applying that ND would be a strong possibility if she was lucky enough to receive a merit scholarship. She did not receive a merit scholarship so as I had stated before we are looking at paying the full sticker price. She feels that it is too much and does not want us to have to alter anything in our future plans to pay for this. I think it is more of a parent thing…we know it would be a great environment for 4 years etc. Thanks again for all of your comments!
Chapel Hill is called Blue Heaven for a reason. It is a great place to attend. Excellent weather, campus spirit, history, and social life. I can’t address the med school issue, but I can say that limiting debt for a student is a major issue and one to be taken seriously. My wife and I attended UNC and had a memorable experience. It would be different than ND, but it would be a school your child would be happy attending. That said, my daughter may be making a similar decision over the next few weeks. The debt issue really bothers her as we only have so much to give $$$wise. She can attend UNC, get a BS and a MS later, and still have 529 money left. I’m sure ND is a special place, but worth 70-80 grand more? Seriously doubt this is the case, especially looking long term with your decision.