Premed at MIT vs Princeton vs Columbia

Colleges and Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
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<p>Hey guys, I'm a columbia'12 (got a likely letter), admitted into MIT and threw Princeton into the bunch just to get a general idea, eventhough I expect a rejection. But my question is which school would be the best place for premed. I want to be able to do research, get a nice science background, get to know professors, and obviously get into Med school. After some research I've came up with this:</p>

<p>MIT: Research is by far the best available in the country in my opinion b/c of their UROP program, which pretty much allows freshmen to seniors to do research and get really involved. Downside, no med school thus junior and senior courses might not be as interesting. And its an engineering school, so i'm concerned that the people there might not be as knowledgeable as other schools with a Med school (this is what i've heard about premed advising, so correct me if i'm wrong) And MIT has grade-deflation, but it prepares you well for you MCAT, so....</p>

<p>Columbia: You get a core, which can make as well-rounded as possible. But that doesn't mean as much as the Med school, where you can cross-register you junior and senior year, which make classes selection really interesting. And you really get to experience how Med school is by talking to med students and learn what it takes to get in. Classes tend to be easier relative to MIT and Princeton, but I don't know. And a lot of classes are taught by TA's which may or maynot suck (sorry for the language).Your in New York City, which i don't know how much a factor this could be to premed...</p>

<p>Princeton: Not as specialized as the other school. But you get really attention from the professors vs classes that are taught by TA's. But the downside, major grade-deflation, and unlike MIT, there seems to be some competitiveness between students. And No med school.</p>

<p>So as you guys can probable see, I'm really torn about which school would be the best place for premed students, even though all three a great schools. This thread got a little long, but input would be great. Thanks!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Downside, no med school thus junior and senior courses might not be as interesting.

[/quote]

There's no med school, but MIT has a joint medical program with Harvard (Health Science and Technology, or HST), so there are plenty of HST courses to take with the Harvard/MIT med students.</p>

<p>You can also cross-register for courses at Harvard Med School.</p>

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<p>Harvard Pre-med statistics
over 95% who applied to medical school were admitted with ave GPA of 3.3 and it is very easy to get B ro B+ at harvard.</p>

<p>MIT pre-med statistics
70 % admitted with average GPA of 3.77</p>

<p>other Ivy schools have over 90% admit rate to med. school
princeton 93% columbia 91% yale 91% etc...</p>

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<p>mok, the data you cite are out of context. note that the Ivies screen who can apply to medical school. For many kids, it's "Sorry, but we're not going to support your application." MIT has no such barrier, and any student, regardless of level of preparation, GPA, MCAT, etc., can apply to medical school. Without an initial screening process, there are likely non-competitive students who apply and are not admitted. Correct knowledge and use of data is important, especially in medicine.</p>

<p>Why are pre-premeds so focused on numbers, anyway? why not choose the place that best fits your idea of a great college? by all means, choose the college that's going to offer you wonderful experiences, a great cultural fit, and four years of making you into a better person. There are already too many premed gunners who never stop and smell the roses.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the info guys. But many people at Princeton are arguing that at MIT there seems to be a shortage of premed advisors, from the MIT newspaper
Woes of a Premed - The Tech</p>

<p>Can anyone at MIT explain more about this shortage? And what do you guys say to the people who argue that MIT is a one sided place (engineering/science) and that it isn't advantageous for premed. Thanks guys, all this info is really helping me. :)</p>

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<p>Note that even that article says that there were enough advisors for sophomores, just not enough for the juniors who requested an advisor late. If you come to MIT knowing you want to apply to medical school, presumably you would apply for an advisor at the appropriate time.</p>

<p>MIT is only as one-sided as you make it. You're required to take 25% of your classes in non-science, but if you'd like to, you can take many more non-science classes. It's a choice to be one-sided or not.</p>

<p>I agree that MIT isn't the best place for certain kinds of premedical students. It's not the best place for people who care only about grades and not about learning. It's not the best place for people who expect to be able to memorize their way through premed classes. It's not the best place for people who are ultra-competitive and cutthroat and have trouble working with others.</p>

<p>My friends who are in medical school right now certainly feel that their MIT education is advantageous to them in medical school.</p>

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<p>i would say Columbia is your best option. First, you get the core, which gives you a great liberal arts foundation. second, their is defiantly great research coming out of Columbia and you can always find a research position there if you try hard enough. I worked at Columbia med school at a nobel laureates lab as a sophomore in high school.</p>

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<p>princeton has major deflation compared to mit?
i read in another thread that premeds might choose princeton over mit simply b/c it(princeton) has less grade-deflation...can anyone help clear this up?</p>

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<p>actually, 94-96% of those applying to med-school from Yale get in.</p>

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<p>If you are serious about medical school when you start at MIT your chances are just as good as any other top school, if not better. Medicine is increasingly technical and the skills acquired at MIT are highly valued by the very top medical schools. No other school outside of Harvard sends more students to HMS each year. My D is currently a premed at MIT and she sees no downside to her choice.</p>

<p>She is a freshman and already has an advisor who is professor at HMS. No problem getting a great premed advisor as MIT and Harvard have a joint medical sciences program. She has already been offered a UROP in an imaging lab to study Parkinson's disease. She also volunteers at Mass General and has been shadowing physicians since first semester. </p>

<p>There are no "weeder" premed classes as in most other schools, so MIT never discourages you from applying to med school. On the other hand, you need to do some planning if you want to maximize your chances.</p>

<p>You need to pick the right major. If you are an engineering major, you are making life difficult for yourself as a premed. About half of MIT students are engineers and the vast majority of those who fail to get into med school are engineers. Their GPA tends to be lower than the science majors and the combined workload can be especially heavy. Most successful premeds are either course 5 (chemistry), course 7 (biology) or course 9 (neuroscience) majors, where the premed and major requirements strongly overlap. Most of these students end up getting very high scores on the MCATs as a result. </p>

<p>While it is true there are no cream-puff majors that can guarantee you a high GPA at MIT, you can avoid hurting your GPA by not overloading your schedule. Double majoring is probably not a good idea. You can even take some difficult courses as exploratory or even P/F. </p>

<p>So if you know what you are doing, MIT can be a great choice for a premed especially since it is not at all a cutthroat environment. There are no rankings or latin honors, so most students don't compete for grades. If you need help, there are plenty of tutoring options with grad students. The research options are beyond what is offered at any peer institution and if you ever decide to go the PhD or MD/PhD route you will be extremely well prepared.</p>

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<p>"No other school outside of Harvard sends more students to HMS each year"</p>

<p>This is not simply true. there are more Princeton, Yale,Columbia graduate at HMS then MIT graduates.</p>

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<p>^Do you have data to back that up?</p>

<p>EDIT: Reposting correct MIT premed statistics from the other thread:
The most recent data from the careers office has the total MIT acceptance rate (including undergrads, alums, and grad students) at 74%.</p>

<p>More importantly, the acceptance rate for undergraduate applicants is 83.6%, with an average GPA of 3.6/4.0 for accepted students (though the lowest accepted GPA is 2.4!).</p>

<p>This data is available [url=<a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html%5Dhere%5B/url"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html]here[/url&lt;/a&gt;].&lt;/p>

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<p>
[quote]
note that the Ivies screen who can apply to medical school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Really? Which Ivies in particular? I know for a fact that Harvard does not. </p>

<p>
[quote]
just not enough for the juniors who requested an advisor late

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Point taken, but I still think there is something wrong with the situation. I mean, honestly , juniors have to apply just to get a premed advisor? And then being put on a wait-list for such an advisor? Really? While I might (sadly) expect this sort of behavior at a state school, this is MIT we're talking about here. Shouldn't MIT have enough advising for everybody who wants one? </p>

<p>Woes</a> of a Premed - The Tech</p>

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<p>
[quote]
If you are serious about medical school when you start at MIT your chances are just as good as any other top school, if not better. Medicine is increasingly technical and the skills acquired at MIT are highly valued by the very top medical schools. No other school outside of Harvard sends more students to HMS each year. My D is currently a premed at MIT and she sees no downside to her choice.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, I would say that the downside is quite clear, and in fact, has been alluded to by several posters. Simply put, the grading is just too hard, relative to that at other top schools. Whether we like it or not, the initial screening in the med-school application process is numerical: if you don't have certain numbers, you won't be considered for admission at many med schools. Sad but true.</p>

<p>To be sure, MIT is indeed an excellent school for those students who do well. If your daughter happens to be one of them, then more power to her. But what about those students who don't do well? Frankly, many of those students may have been better off if they had simply gone to another school.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Actually, I would say that the downside is quite clear, and in fact, has been alluded to by several posters. Simply put, the grading is just too hard, relative to that at other top schools.

[/quote]

But the latest statistics don't back this up with regard to medical school. MIT's med school acceptance rate has increased significantly even over the past three years, to the point that 89.7% of undergrads who use the Careers Office's premed advising are accepted. (Numbers</a>)</p>

<p>I agree that MIT is not always the best choice for a student interested in medical school, because MIT's institutional culture is different from the culture many premed students embrace. But the numbers show that MIT premeds seem to be doing just as well for themselves as students at other top schools.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Frankly, many of those students may have been better off if they had simply gone to another school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There is no evidence to support that statement. The very best medical schools admit students disproportionately from the most selective private colleges. This would simply not be the case if GPA and MCAT scores were the only factors in the initial screening process. The published evidence shows that a dozen universities are strong feeder schools to the the top med schools. MIT gets a lot of students in to HMS and other top med schools, because it is very well perceived by these schools and any real or perceived grade deflation is often taken into account. </p>

<p>How does MIT achieve this feeder status, despite its rigorous curriculum? Most MIT premeds have research or premed advisors who also teach at HMS. They can take classes at the HST program where the best HMS faculty teaches. They also volunteer and shadow physicians at Mass General and the Brigham's hospitals, with some of the very best residency programs and packed to the gills with physicians graduates from the best med schools. My D. is a lowly freshman at MIT and she already knows several top HMS professors, one of which has already offered to be her premed advisor. He picked her for some advanced research project because of her dedication to clinical medicine and demontrated research ability, not her grades. That does not mean she will get into HMS, but a strong recommendaton from him certainly will enhance her application to top medical schools. A good recommendation is often the best way to stand out in a highly qualified pool of applicants. The "peer" effect has been demonstrated over and over again, whether it is to get papers published, grants approved or admission to selective professional or graduate schools. Mollie admitted that the fact she knew and worked for influential professors at MIT and Harvard had a strong effect on her admission to their respective PhD programs. It is no different for the MD admission process. A good recommendation from a well known professor will always carry more weight than an excellent one from a less well known professor. You are much likely to get such a recommendation at research universities with strong affiliations with top medical schools. Simple as that.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
But the latest statistics don't back this up with regard to medical school. MIT's med school acceptance rate has increased significantly even over the past three years, to the point that 89.7% of undergrads who use the Careers Office's premed advising are accepted

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, I'm afraid I have to diametrically disagree: the numbers absolutely back me up on this one. </p>

<p>The relevant figure (because it is comparable to other schools) is the overall admission rate of 74%. That, frankly, does not compare well to the top Ivies, whose rate is somewhere in the 80-90's, as has been shown on other posts on CC.</p>

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<p>But the rate for undergrads -- which is the rate that people on this board obviously care about -- is 85-90%.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
There is no evidence to support that statement. The very best medical schools admit students disproportionately from the most selective private colleges. This would simply not be the case if GPA and MCAT scores were the only factors in the initial screening process. The published evidence shows that a dozen universities are strong feeder schools to the the top med schools. MIT gets a lot of students in to HMS and other top med schools, because it is very well perceived by these schools and any real or perceived grade deflation is often taken into account.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh really? Are you sure? So then why does the average MIT premed who is admitted to med school have an average GPA of a 3.6/4 (or 4.6/5 on the 5-point scale)? If med schools really took into account grade deflation, then shouldn't that average admitted GPA be lower? </p>

<p><a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
How does MIT achieve this feeder status, despite its rigorous curriculum?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The answer is simple: MIT's students are obviously very good because MIT is highly selective. Hence, I would expect MIT students to do extremely well. </p>

<p>But that's not the question at hand. The question at hand is whether the MIT experience actually adds value above and beyond the ability of the students themselves. That is what is ambiguous. The grade deflation in particular makes the answer highly unclear. It is as if I could take Kobe Bryant and strap a 20 pound weight to his back and make him play basketball. He would STILL probably be able to play well, but obviously not as well as if he didn't have that weight strapped on him. </p>

<p>Look, I'll put it to you this way. I had a similar discussion on this very subject with Ben Golub on the Caltech forum, and he - despite being arguably the strongest Caltech supporter on this forum - freely admits that Caltech is not the best place to go for premed, precisely because of the grade deflation there. Specifically, he freely admits that prospective premeds are probably better off going to other schools. Now, why would the logic with MIT be any different, given the cultural similarities between MIT and Caltech? </p>

<p>
[quote]
My D. is a lowly freshman at MIT and she already knows several top HMS professors, one of which has already offered to be her premed advisor. He picked her for some advanced research project because of her dedication to clinical medicine and demontrated research ability, not her grades. That does not mean she will get into HMS, but a strong recommendaton from him certainly will enhance her application to top medical schools. A good recommendation is often the best way to stand out in a highly qualified pool of applicants. The "peer" effect has been demonstrated over and over again, whether it is to get papers published, grants approved or admission to selective professional or graduate schools. Mollie admitted that the fact she knew and worked for influential professors at MIT and Harvard had a strong effect on her admission to their respective PhD programs. It is no different for the MD admission process. A good recommendation from a well known professor will always carry more weight than an excellent one from a less well known professor. You are much likely to get such a recommendation at research universities with strong affiliations with top medical schools. Simple as that.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, no, 'fraid not. It is HARDLY as simple as that. Simply put, and unfortunately, many (probably most) MD admissions use numerical screens as first cuts. If you can't even make the first cut, they won't even care about the rest of your application, regardless of how good it is, because they will already have thrown it out. Let's face it. If I have a 3.0/5 (or, in other words, a 2.0/4) GPA and a terrible MCAT, I can present glowing rec letters from 3 Nobel Prize winners, and I still won't get into HMS, and in fact, I probably won't get into any med school at all. That is, sadly, the nature of the game. </p>

<p>Look, I don't like the game. I wish what I am saying wasn't true. But, sadly, it is true. MD admissions are largely a beauty contest in the sense that while high numbers won't guarantee that you will get in, low numbers will almost certainly keep you out. The 'game' of med school admissions involves avoiding bad grades. Sad but true.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
But the rate for undergrads -- which is the rate that people on this board obviously care about -- is 85-90%.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But that's not the number that people SHOULD care about. For after all, the numbers clearly show that the clear majority of MIT med-school applicants are not undergrads. Only 73 of the applicants in 2007 were undergrads, meaning that 121, or the clear majority, were not undergrads. </p>

<p>Preprofessional</a> Stats - MIT Careers Office</p>

<p>To be fair, that's not specific to MIT. At most schools, the number of alumni applicants to med-schools exceeds the number of undergrad applicants. After all, every school has some students who decide to apply to med school after they have already graduated, either because they decided to do something else after graduation (i.e. get a job, get a master's, etc.) or because they did apply as undergrads but just didn't get in anywhere, or whatever. But that's neither here nor there, for at the end of the day, it simply demonstrates that the odds are that any given MIT med-school applicant is probably going to be an alumni rather than an undergrad. Hence, students should care about the overall figure, for it is the most relevant figure.</p>