Premed Decision: UCLA vs Northwestern

College Search & Selection
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I can’t tell you the number of UCLA students I’ve had drop my class because they’re pre-med and afraid they might get a B+ or A-. It’s pretty frustrating, and I worry about the mental health of some of my visibly stressed out students. Among other reasons, UCLA CAPS is woefully inadequate, and the university recently cut back the max number of visits from 10 to 6 per year.

UCLA is not an easy school, and that goes especially for anyone majoring in the sciences. Classes are getting larger, bureaucratic red tape is increasing, and the fast-paced quarter system means that you’ll stay behind if you fall behind. It’s possible to do well and get into a great graduate program or medical school, and many students do, but you have to stay on top of your work.

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@ucbalumnus, there are gunners, but there are also schools who have a more collaborative environment. My D went to a school that was the latter, with a few outlier gunners.

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@CottonTales can you share what school that is?

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@crknwk2000, a tippy top LAC, and her now husband, also a Dr, went to a different tippy top LAC and had the same experience.

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@warblersrule . . . thank you for your input.

Some questions if i may…

Regarding Quarters and Semesters. Chancellor Gene Block characterized the Quarter System as a “failure,” in a recent student-newspaper article.

1a) I’m just curious as to what input and from whom has led him to believe this? He mentioned the lack of a reading period in quarters. Is this all he has?
1b) Do you support the chancellor’s attempts at wanting to convert UCLA to the semester system?
1c) How does the academic senate, who has the most power, feel about this? How difficult a transition would it be for the professors?
1d) Bottom line, how successful do you think it will be? Or is it just the latest bluster without much support?

Regarding options for those who don’t get into med school. UCLA baccalaureates have a little less than 50% chance of being accepted to med school according to the aamc.org data, of 1,014 who applied in the current, 2018-19 academic year => a little less than 500 who gained acceptances. Of course these are unfiltered numbers.

2a) What do those who opt out of applying to med school do with a life-science degree if you have a feel for this? Or what have UCLA students been opting for once med school is out of the picture?

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You mean this article? https://dailybruin.com/2019/04/02/chancellor-gene-block-supports-switching-ucla-to-semester-system/

https://dailybruin.com/2018/06/08/the-quad-the-long-convoluted-history-that-entrenches-the-quarter-system-at-ucla/ has some background information.

Basically, the entire UC system switched to quarters in 1966. UCB changed back to semesters in 1983, while UCM opened in 2005 with the semester system. Note that all but three of the over 100 California community colleges are on the semester system, and most of the CSUs are on the semester system.

Probably the unstated reason that many colleges prefer semesters is that administrative overhead is lower – need to do scheduling, registration, final exams, etc. twice per academic year instead of three times per academic year. However, switching from one system to the other entails a large one-time cost for the switch.

But then both UCLA and Northwestern are on the quarter system, so that should not be a reason that makes one better than the other for any particular student.

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If money isn’t a factor you should definitely go to NU

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@ucbalumnus . . . thank you.

I thought the first article was biased, but the second one which narrated the history of how quarters came to be at UC was especially bad. Its author made it seem as if semester students had more time off during summer. And not one proponent of the quarter system for balance.

In the first article, the history and labor relations professor, Tobias Higbie, says:

“Syllabi are set. Approaches to teaching are geared to the 10 week quarter,” Higbie said. “That said, I think after a few years of trial and error we would make it work and get the benefits of the semester system.”

They’ll make it work after a few of years?. What about the students who have to put up with the missteps and the problems in the adjustment period?

It’s clear to me that the chancellor is just trying to coddle the students.

I remembered after I wrote the part of the advantages of UCLA being on quarters with students being able to take a greater breath of classes that I realized that Northwestern was on the same system. I believe this would be good for the OP or anyone’s learning.

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The quarter system can, in theory, allow a college to have year-round enrollment, allowing it to enroll a larger number of students if students have their “off” quarters evenly distributed (instead of concentrated in the summer). Dartmouth tries to move slightly in this direction with its D-plan (where students’ 12 quarters on campus typically include at least one summer quarter), although it is nowhere close to a full implementation of that. But traditional patterns of college enrollment seem to be too strong to break, so that this theoretical advantage of the quarter system does not exist.

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@ucbalumnus . . . It’d be tough to tell students in any way that they are required to take a summer term. What about the motivation of graduating early and saving scads of cash? This can be just a rhetorical question, so don’t feel compelled to answer.

Edit: I got you, belatedly. The brass at UC implemented quarters to keep the university running year round.

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“I find it difficult to garner the motivation to keep the same energy when it’s snowing and I can’t see the sun for 5 months of a year (I know, I’m a New Yorker and it’s a struggle).”

If money isn’t a factor you should definitely go to UCLA.

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I think UCLA is great. I think Northwestern is great. And for some students, Northwest Illinois is great.

OP. You will find gunners everywhere. You will find caring and collaborative students at both schools too. You’ll have good weather and bad weather at both. You’ll have hard classes at both, with tough curves and not.

You’ll “find your tribe” and then maybe one or two more.

You will be able create special bonds with similar super smart students and you’ll run into a few dummies like me. But despite what you hear, they won’t keep you enjoying the “life of the mind” or whatever it is you are looking for in the next four years.

You may end up becoming a Dr. attending either college or figure out a different path.

The world of absolutes on CC and “best” does not exist in the real world. There are too many variables.

Make an educated decision and do the best you can, work hard, be a nice person and let the chips fall where they may.

It’s not as though it’s become a doc or end up in a coal mine. Lol.

And I still don’t understand the CC official list of hierarchical absolutes anyway.

Where does “tippy top” begin and end? Does “top” start where that list ends or is it already second tier at that point. And does “elite” cover “tippy top”, “top”, as well as the non “tippy top” second tier that may fall under “prestigious”. And where does that end.

And are these levels of exclusivity chiseled into the granite cliffs of college choice for time immemorial?

What does one use as their source material for this knowledge -USNWR, Forbes, Niche, Poets and Quants, Princeton review, Schools that change lives, WSJ, international rankings or domestic only, salary surveys- old or new depending on results, Frank Bruni, Fortune 100 CEO stats, PhD applications per 100, or the dozens of other guides? They change every year.

UCLA was the number one public university in America according to usnwr . Is that tippy top, top, second tier, elite or prestigious? Many international rankings have Cal as number one. Or is that too grad school oriented.

This is all very silly to dissect levels of excellence, once you’ve achieved excellence. Some like Monet. Some like Renoir. Both are great.

Northwestern and UCLA are both wonderful and challenging environments. Everyone has an environment that will suit them better than others. Choose yours and best of luck.

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So very well put, but this should be no surprise since for me you are always the voice of measured reason @privatebanker …
Cheers and thanks for always putting things into very real, sane perspective.

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@Sulley119 - Both are great schools. I would recommend Northwestern because it is more exclusive / elite at the undergraduate level. Most students at UCLA cannot get into Northwestern or a top 10-12 private except maybe the top 10-20%. Top 10 in USNews vs. Top 25. And now to SAT / ACT scores, Northwestern has had significantly higher scores for many many years compared to UCLA. About a 150 point difference in SAT average. 150 points - not 15 points. That is significant. And it is not just about test scores when it comes to exclusive, elite admissions - Harvard could enroll a class with a 1600 perfect SAT average. They are looking for very talented, unique individuals. Northwestern / Duke / Dartmouth, Stanford, etc. could similarly enroll a class with a 1550 SAT average if they wanted to but UCLA could not.

Go look at the RD decisions threads for these schools and you’ll see a ton of students with 1500+ SAT scores / 34+ ACT scores (with perfect grades) rejected on the regular. The one thing I would also mention coming from the Northeast is that UCLA out of state is way more competitive for admission than it is in-state. So, if you plan to remain in the northeast, I don’t think your peers or future colleagues will be as impressed with the degree as you may think. Also, UCLA has transfer agreements set up with many local community colleges, such as Santa Monica Community, where a lot of students are able to back-door their way into UCLA & UCB after 2 years of community college by just obtaining a required GPA (no standardized test score is even needed). At the majority of other super selective schools (like Northwestern), transfer admission is extremely competitive because of (1) high retention / graduation rates and (2) lack of guaranteed transfer admission programs. You obviously worked really hard to get to this point - I think you will be surrounded by more like-minded students at Northwestern. There are definitely some brilliant students at UCLA but the average UCLA student will be weaker academically than his/her counterpart at Northwestern. That is a FACT.

Unless $$ is a big concern, why would you go to a large public school (which is still awesome but not quite the same level as NU) when you can go an elite private school with more resources, a higher caliber student body, smaller classes, and an overall better reputation. Not to mention, the recruiting opportunities coming out of Northwestern are far superior to those at UCLA, if you (like thousands of students) changes from pre-med to something else. NU is a top target for all of the top consulting companies (Bain, McKinsey, BCG, Oliver Wyman) and a target for major bulge-bracket investment banks. UCLA is not. So, even career opportunities will be better coming out of Northwestern. If you decide to pursue pre-med, NU is a better option because there will be significantly more research opportunities available to you because research funding is significantly higher per capita at NU than UCLA. NU’s endowment (top 10) is significantly larger than UCLA’s even though it is a much smaller university at the undergraduate level. Also, pre-med advising at NU will be better compared to UCLA’s where you can easily get lost in the crowd. The percentage of students accepted into medical school from NU exceeds 80% - I could not found that stat for UCLA but there is no way it is even close to that number. So, your chances of getting into medical school are higher from Northwestern.

There is also less competition for coveted internships / full time jobs (if you change your path) since the student body is significantly smaller at Northwestern and the recruiting opportunities (per capita) is greater. It is also extremely easy to switch in/out of schools and not have to worry about getting into certain courses, etc. UCLA, UCB, UMichigan and UVA alums will disagree here but if money is not a factor, 95% of students are choosing NU over UCLA and the equivalent top public, UNLESS $$$ is a big consideration and you are in-state. A lot of students go into college thinking they want to be doctors and then change their minds. Northwestern provides the flexibility to do that and excel regardless of the path you take. Good luck and congrats on the acceptances.

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They do not want to because they reserve a large portion of their class for applicants with special preferences and privileges (legacy, donation, athlete, URM – all except URM correlate to coming from a more privileged background than the typical applicants to those schools, and URMs at those schools tend to come from more privileged backgrounds than URMs on average).

TAG is not available for UCB and UCLA; all transfer applicants apply into a competitive admission process. TAG admission by meeting a certain college GPA is available at some of the other UC campuses. In any case, you seem quite disdainful about transfer students from community college, who are more likely to have come from unprivileged backgrounds and therefore had to personally earn a greater portion of their merits and achievements, rather than take advantage of a privileged upbringing with the most opportunities to earn merit, and unearned preferences like legacy and donation to get into a desired college. Some of the private schools you would probably be impressed with have a similar view on what kinds of transfer students to admit, although they admit only small numbers of transfer students overall.

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@StanfordGSB00 . . . per your first paragraph:

Let me cut to the chase and present a superscored SAT for UCLA. the backup is [url= http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/2138131-help-me-decide-between-ucla-cal-berkeley-duke-and-northwestern-for-economics-math-p4.html]here[/url], posts 56 and 57 with a correction. I’d be appreciative if you’d answer, thank you.

Let me proceed to adjust for superscores of the following:
………SAT……………………25th…………………50th…………………75th
………Northwestern…………1,430……………….1,490………………1,550
………UCLA…………………1,340……………….1,430………………1,530 (adjusted to superscore)

…………GPA…………………Average……………Median
…….Northwestern……………N/A………………N/A (Northwestern does not provide gpa on CDS)
……UCLA……………………3.89………….….3.95 (Unweighted)

To add to what UCB stated, UCLA and Cal accept in the low 20% range from community college. The average xfer gpa from community college to both would be: 3.77-3.80. The CS major for both Cal and UCLA have a 25th/75th Percentile gpa of 3.90/4.00; Haas, 3.84/4.00; UCLA Bus/Econ, 3.86/4.00; Econ Cal, 3.83/4.00, UCLA 3.78/4.00

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@ucbalumnus . . .

I didn’t know that there was such a strong International presence in transfers to many of the UC campuses. UCSD and SB had higher percentages, 17-18%, than UCLA and Cal, 16-17%, for 2018-19.

I guess this makes sense, since this way, Internationals are more readily able to prove English proficiency or maybe to gain it at community college. Does this mean that they could prove proficiency by taking classes here, rather than by the tests? I’m guessing that perhaps this was what could have been holding them back from entering as freshmen, besides the fact that the acceptance rates into especially Cal and UCLA would be even lower for foreign students than for the other students, in-staters and out-of-staters. Edit: But might the lower rates have been because some lacked English proficiency?

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A while back, I emailed Northwestern asking for med school placement stats and it was around 80%. You should ask NU what the stats is these days.

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@IWannaHelp, it has been stated many times here on CC, medschools manipulate their Medschool admissions stats in many ways. For any top schools, published medschool admission rates are basically meaningless. Just because a school says their Medschool placement rate is 80% does NOT mean those will be your odds. I haven’t looked lately, but I think it is about 40%. @WayOutWestMom is the medschool stats guru, I’m sure she can provide accurate info.

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I’m guessing the number is actually higher than 1500 frosh premeds at UCLA. UCLA has 1000 students apply each year to med school.

There are definitely gunners at UCLA. Poor advising and no Committee Letters.

NU has about 230 students apply to med schools each year. Go there.