<p>I am a premed rising sophomore at a top 20 university with 3.8+ GPA. I don't quite enjoy the social scene at my school because of heavy Greek dominance and lack of variety, so I applied for transfer and have just been admitted to Columbia (CC), UPenn (CAS), and Duke (Trinity). Although my current school has a strong premed program and an on-site med school, the new schools are more well-known and prestigious and have excellent (stronger?) premed program too. Duke will cost $5k more per year, while my costs will stay almost the same at the other two. Please help as I feel hesitating either to stay or start from scratch at a new school. Most of my credits will transfer but I am sure there will be quite some extra work to excel in a new environment. What do you think? It will be great if previous transfer students can share their experiences.</p>
<p>I’m going to be straightforward and say that if the Greek life at your current school has bothered you and convinced you it isn’t the place for you, Penn probably isn’t either. About 1 in 3 students here is affiliated with a fraternity or sorority, and it’s nearly impossible to have a conventional social life without going to their parties and events. That said, Duke and Columbia have approximately the same statistic (in the low to mid 30% range) and in fact, most top 20 schools, besides Dartmouth, have relatively similar involvement rates. You might want to consult the Duke and Columbia forums to see what kind of social influence their Greek life imparts, but my personal advice is that if Duke is going to cost you $15k more, you might want to take it off your list because I’m sure you know that the med school path is pretty damn expensive.</p>
<p>Although the Greek scene at Penn is definitely visible, I don’t agree that it completely dominates the social scene. There are plenty of people who I know who are not Greek (most of the people I associate with are not) who socialize through other venues like student groups (mock trial, music ensembles, etc). I myself am not particularly involved in any prominent student groups, but I still manage to hang out with friends from my major, and ones I just met from around. There are sometimes when I feel left out, but I don’t doubt that I made the right decision not to rush.
As a freshman, it may seem like everyone just goes to frat parties all the time, but in reality, most people stop going regularly sophomore year and start going to smaller events with their friends.
I am going to guess that you may be transferring from someplace like Vanderbilt. If so, Penn has a completely different culture, even with the Greek system. The Greek system tends to be more intense for southern schools (Duke included from what I have heard).</p>
<p>Thanks for your replies! If there is a variety of other social avenues, I can live with it. Frat parties all the time can get monotonous, and options are desirable. How difficult is it to keep a high GPA at UPenn (3.7+)? For example, how many hours of study is required for 1 hour of class? I hear that physics, among other classes, are extremely hard at Penn.</p>
<p>Can’t answer that question, depends on how smart/fast learner you are, haha</p>
<p>@Pineappleeater: Penn rising junior here. A’s and A-'s, regardless of the course, require quite a bit of effort. Everyone’s smart and hardworking here so you can imagine the level of effort required to be in the top quarter-to-third of the classes you’ll be in. If you’re looking for grade inflation, go to Brown. Penn doesn’t really have much, if any, grade inflation. Columbia and Duke have similarly tough reputations, though I’m not as familiar with them as I am with Penn.</p>
<p>Also, I have to strongly disagree with Poeme. Frats are pretty big on campus at Penn. If you’re in one, your social life will be a lot better. All the best weekend parties are always at frats as well. </p>
<p>My personal recommendation would be for either Duke or Columbia. I believe Duke has the highest placement rate for pre-meds among the three and, well, Columbia’s social scene is generally less frat-heavy - if that really matters to you. </p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>While the frat scene is definitely very big at Penn, it does not completely dominate the social life by any means. I feel that the people who feel it does are the ones who are involved Greek life. From what I have heard Duke has a frat scene that if anything is larger than the one at Penn and also more insular.
I am a rising senior and most of my friends are not involved in Greek life. They do not regret their decision. They are involved in another group activities. The thing about many groups at Penn is that they host their own parties and byos. I know for a fact that mock trial, many of the a cappella/other musics groups, drama groups, and debate groups do this. Most people do these sorts of things as upperclassman. I know most people stop going to frat parties by junior year.</p>
<p>In regards to medical school, Penn has tons of biomedical research opportunities through the medical school. As regards to grading, yes you will have to work hard, but becoming a doctor is a marathon, not a sprint. You should choose the school which will give you the best preparation, not the one at which it is easiest to inflate your GPA. I know plenty of people will try to tell you otherwise, but the kids I know who were the most successful in medical school admissions (one physics, one biophysics, one biochemistry/physics, two are going to Hopkins and one was deciding between Harvard and Cornell) were the kids who were very involved in research and took very demanding courses, going above and beyond what was expected.</p>
<p>Thanks for your replies! </p>
<p>@iamanapp I did not know Duke had the highest placement rate. I know Columbia claims 93%. Do you have a source? I will look into that. </p>
<p>@Poeme Good analogy. Premed is definitely a marathon. GPA inflation is not what I am after, and I probably won’t find it in any of these 3 schools. It will only come with hard work.</p>
<p>I feel like competitiveness and work ethic of students at these schools also has a significant influence. It’s more difficult to stand out in a more competitive environment. A less competitive environment can help. From what I have gathered, Penn seems like the most pre-professional and competitive of the three. Can anyone comment on the validity of these statements?</p>
<p>Extracurricular opportunities also has a large impact. Even though all three schools can provide fantastic opportunities, which provides (relatively) the best opportunities for premeds?</p>
<p>Let me provide you with some statistics PineappleEater. Here are some numbers regarding the amount of grads from these schools that are currently enrolled in a few of the top-tier medical schools…</p>
<p>Wash U Med from 1995-2011
[Who</a> Chooses WU](<a href=“http://medadmissions.wustl.edu/HowtoApply/selectionprocess/Pages/WhoChoosesWU.aspx]Who”>http://medadmissions.wustl.edu/HowtoApply/selectionprocess/Pages/WhoChoosesWU.aspx)
Duke: 79
UPenn: 36
Columbia: 12</p>
<p>JHU SOM 2010-11
<a href=“http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/students/academics/catalog/SOMCtlg1011.pdf[/url]”>http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/students/academics/catalog/SOMCtlg1011.pdf</a>
Duke: 16
Columbia: 12
UPenn: 10</p>
<p>Case Western 2012
[CWRU</a> School of Medicine | Office of Admissions](<a href=“http://casemed.case.edu/admissions/profile.cfm]CWRU”>http://casemed.case.edu/admissions/profile.cfm)
Duke: 8
UPenn: 8
Columbia: 1</p>
<p>Overall, I would choose Duke or UPenn for medical school.</p>
<p>Goldenboy, care to provide data for HMS, Stanford, Columbia, Duke and Penn Med as well?</p>
<p>^ Of course he doesn’t. 
Especially Penn–consistently one of the top 5 medical schools in the country and often tied with JHU at #2–which takes relatively large numbers of Penn undergrads:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/14582619-post9.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/14582619-post9.html</a></p>
<p>Bottom line: these schools are, for all intents and purposes, IDENTICAL in terms of their ability to place premed students into excellent medical schools, and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. You don’t pick among these 3 phenomenal schools based on medical school placement statistics, unless you regularly try to determine how many angels you can balance on the head of a pin. :rolleyes: Instead, focus on overall fit and personal preference, and choose the school at which you think you will best thrive, both academically and socially, and the rest–including medical school placement–will take care of itself.</p>
<p>And in terms of the so-called “preprofessional” environment at Penn, you should understand that this overused meme is based largely on the presence of Wharton and the Nursing School, since very few of Penn’s peers (and none of the other Ivies) have undergraduate business and/or nursing programs. However, Penn’s College of Arts and Sciences, with 6400 undergrads, is still by far the largest component of Penn’s undergraduate student body, and is as large as–and in many cases larger than–the undergraduate liberal arts components of virtually all of Penn’s peers. And I can assure you that being a premed at Penn is no more competitive than it is at any of Penn’s peers, including Duke and Columbia. I’ll even go as far to say, with great confidence, that the 6400 undergrads in Penn’s College of Arts and Sciences are, on the whole, no more “preprofessional” than the liberal arts undergrads at Duke, Columbia, or any other of Penn’s peers.</p>
<p>
I definitely wasn’t trying to present a tainted picture here JHS; I actually have never seen such data for Penn Med or I would have gladly shared it. I can only assume that Penn undergrads are by far the top feeder undergrad there.</p>
<p>
[Duke</a> undergraduates have an edge in admission to Duke professional schools | The Chronicle](<a href=“http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2013/04/01/duke-undergraduates-have-edge-admission-duke-professional-schools]Duke”>http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2013/04/01/duke-undergraduates-have-edge-admission-duke-professional-schools)</p>
<p>I’ve only seen rough figures for Duke which is referenced in the Chronicle article above. About 40 of the less than 200 students admitted to Duke Med this year were Duke undergrads and Duke alums make up about 20-25% of each medical school entering class according to Daniel Scheier, director of health professions advising.</p>
<p>This is a pretty substantial “homefield” advantage.</p>
<p>^ goldenboy8784, I’ll take your confusing me with JHS as a compliment–and I mean that sincerely! :)</p>
<p>I was going to say the same thing! 45 Percenter and I are not the same person, but I am happy to be accused of saying the sensible things he does.</p>
<p>A few other comments on this thread:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Congratulations, OP. You must be a heck of a student, because getting accepted as a transfer at any of those colleges is a real accomplishment, much less all three.</p></li>
<li><p>Re Columbia: Look into what completing the Columbia Core will do to your medical school flight path. It may be hard to put yourself in a position to apply to medical school two years from now from Columbia. Note: I don’t know this for sure, but I know enough to know that the question is worth researching.</p></li>
<li><p>It’s true that among colleges of this caliber, Duke and Penn are probably among the ones with the strongest fraternity cultures. I know plenty of people who have gone to each of those colleges and loved it and not gotten involved with fraternities at all, and those who have, and have had great experiences, and, unfortunately, a couple people who have felt oppressed and excluded by frat culture at Duke. If you go someplace that’s really frat-heavy now, like DePauw, none of these schools will feel all that fratty.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>“a couple people who have felt oppressed and excluded by frat culture at Duke.” You will undoubtedly find the some people who feel the same way about Penn, even Columbia for that matter. I’d rule Columbia out. The core is just too intense. It’s a coin toss between Penn and Duke.</p>
<p>^ A lot of my Columbia friends say they are thankful for having the Core - it is extra work but the courses are very easy to get high grades in. </p>
<p>I’d day it’s a coin toss between Columbia and Duke. Also, and this is my personal opinion, but I feel Columbia and Duke would be better for the OP should he/she choose to follow a path other than med school.</p>
<p>Either way, three great choices. Choose whichever you like when you visit (do visit if you haven’t already – can’t stress the importance of this enough).</p>
<p>
Based on what? Penn has as many top-10 and top-20 liberal arts departments as–if not more than–Columbia and Duke. Not to mention that the OP would have access to courses in the top undergraduate business program in the country (if not the world), as well as numerous other opportunities to take courses in the top-ranked Annenberg School for Communication, the Law School, the School of Design, Graduate School of Education, School of Social Policy and Practice, etc. Good luck trying to do that at Duke or Columbia (spoiler alert: you CAN’T).</p>
<p>You’re right that all 3 are great choices, but there’s absolutely no reason to think that Duke or Columbia would be better for the OP should he/she choose not to pursue medicine.</p>
<p>Penn, Penn, Penn! I was there and my D is applying UPENN as her first choice this year.</p>
<p>It’s tough to choose any top college over penn when one intends on being pre-med. I feel that most students probably stand a better chance at getting into a med school by going to a slightly lesser school such as villanova, boston college, or lehigh than having their gpa get shot down at penn, columbia or duke…however, if you have the academic ability and intensity to maintain above a 3.6 at a top college then I think Penn is your best bet. </p>
<p>First, Penn has pretty great track record. 85% accept rate to med school and more students were accepted from penn than from columbia or duke.
second, Penn spent more money on research last year than all the other ivys. Penn’s med school receives more NIH funding than all the other ivys and duke. All this essentially means that there are lots of research opportunities at penn as an undergrad. Penn has a program where they accept about 100 sophomores and freshman to perform medical research during the summer. On top of that an addition hundred can perform medical research at penn from a variety of other programs not directly affiliated with the school. Furthermore, Penn is constantly doing chemical, biological, and psychological research and they are always willing to bring students on board. Princeton students even flock to penn over the summer to do research at the medical facilities because princeton doesnt have a medical school or medical facilities. </p>
<p>I would eliminate columbia because it is not as strong as duke or penn which, along with johns hopkins, are pre-med powerhouses. Between duke and penn, i think penn would be the way to go.</p>