<p>JMilton - only my own personal experience but unless I know the counselor - calling to “advocate” works against the student. Here’s why (and I’m currently fielding multiple calls and emails from an oh so enthusiastic high school rep who is on my last nerve - so the issue is near and dear to my heart). </p>
<p>If your friend’s daughter was deferred - it’s not a bad thing. At MIT, for example, a higher percentage of students deferred from EA are admitted compared to the regular pool. EA decisions are often about looking for something specific (unusually strong appeal, hooks, what have you). Despite the impression - it’s not always about choosing the students who clearly qualify and got their apps in early. Some who apply EA are denied outright (thus putting them out of their misery early). The good news is your friend’s daughter isn’t in that pool. Deferred students are still considered strong candidates but the Adcoms want to weigh them against RD applicants as they try to balance the class.</p>
<p>If the STUDENT adds material to the file or makes a call - it’s a positive. It signals the student is motivated. I would encourage your friend’s daughter to keep her file updated. If the SCHOOL calls on her behalf it often signals a few things - none positive. Example: The counselor has admissions goals and quotas – (particularly true for local private schools where parents demand to know what they’re getting for their money), the student isn’t strong enough to stand on their own, why isn’t the student making the call, etc. </p>
<p>Many counselors may also have information that they aren’t able to give the family or the student. In some cases, however, it’s an issue of fairness. If a counselor advocates for one student does that require them to give equal treatment to all the others? That in itself is a full-time job. And do they advocate at one school - or all of them? What happens if they advocated in the past and the students then matriculated to a different college?</p>
<p>Unfortunately - there are a lot of misconceptions about the role of a counselor and/or the hows and whys of college admissions. This process is a soul-sucking experience. Your friend is not alone in the angst. But as with boarding schools, the problem is that colleges are fielding thousands upon thousands of applications from bright young students and won’t have a place for them all. And all the Adcoms are exhausted along with staff who are running interference on the calls that are inevitably flooding in from well-meaning adults trying to influence the process.</p>
<p>The squeaky wheel needs to be the friend’s daughter (not the counselor or the parents). The former is a positive, the latter might count against her.</p>
<p>The $200,000 bought a top notch education and incredible friendships (hopefully) with students from all over the world that will last a lifetime. There is no contractual obligation to browbeat a college to take a student they may or may not want. :(</p>
<p>What I understood about this in my lowly public high school way back in my day, was that a call from a guidance counselor could be helpful if the GC had a relationship with an AO at the college. GC did not call for everyone, but for the one (or few) he really thought was best suited to the college and/or most deserving.</p>
<p>In the setting of an actual relationship, that AO would know exactly what his friend at the high school means when he says a certain student is “outstanding”. Taking that student would be a safer bet than taking one of multiple students described as “outstanding” by a GC who is not well known or well trusted by the AO. </p>
<p>In my day, I would have interpreted a GC’s reluctance to call for a student to mean he did not have much of a relationship with that college, or that the particular student was not the one he wanted to advocate for. I’m pretty sure it worked that way in my public high back then. I know our Guidance department had a “good relationship” with certain colleges, and kids were more likely to be accepted to those schools than to other comparable colleges. Who had the GC calling for them was not openly known, but not everyone had it. Only you knew if you were one of them.</p>
<p>But things may be very different now that parents are so involved in the application process, and might demand “fairness” in GC’s efforts to advocate. And Exie’s point is well taken - at that age, the kid should be able to advocate for herself anyway, and doing so shows serious interest.</p>
<p>The suggested response to deferral or wait-listing at my kids’ school is basically what ExieMITAlum advises. The college counselor will suggest to the student that the student write to the college with updated information and an affirmation of continued interest.</p>
<p>I believe that the college counselors do advocate on behalf of students, but it’s more of a low-key, subtle approach, and I think it’s mostly before college decisions come out. For example, the college counselors will chat with the college representatives when the reps visit the school in the fall, and they may talk periodically on the phone during the fall.</p>
<p>ExieMitAlum- I agree, a school counselor calling a volunteer alumni interviewer is completely inappropriate. However, for a private or public school counselor to be in touch with the admissions officer at a college with whom they have a prior relationship…it happens! Sometimes the colleges even call the counselors to get more info. My understanding is that there is quite a lot of communication back and forth. Photodad- I think you are correct!</p>
<p>@Baystate, I’m always curious why there are so many adjectives attached to me when making a counterpoint. As if somehow an effective way to invalidate or dismiss the comment. It’s not. And since I spend enough time doing this (and since my DH is an Adcom at another competitive program) I try to explain why there are good reasons for a Counselor to NOT advocate for a student unless there is a strong reason to do so. Because so many schools try to do it (hence increasing the burden on the college) and it opens the counselor to charges of favoritism from other parents paying tuition and desiring the same results. yes - it happens - but it’s not “the rule.”</p>
<p>As for the cheeky “volunteer alum” title you assigned - (it’s not my title, btw) – In my case, the students can’t get into MIT without going through our teams first. I know it may be different at other colleges, but at mine we’re part of the gatekeeping system and we’re pretty effective at culling the herd. Interviews can be waived, but the admission rate for those students is less than 1%. Which is why there is sometimes a full-court press from counselors about their star performers. Only - the problem is - sometimes given the low admit rate, there are other stars with more assets that are more attractive and I know based on the profile, a good student may not be “good enough” through no fault of their own. Legacy admissions also add little to no advantage at the Institute.</p>
<p>But back to the original question – I am aware that counselors will call a school where they have a prior relationship - but almost always when there may have been something extraordinary that wasn’t captured in the application. Or to seek clarification. But I’ve seen it backfire. A student certainly don’t want that call made if forced by a pushy parent. </p>
<p>And even if there is a prior relationship - there are multiple people scoring every college file that comes through - it’s not that hard to sense undue influence and counteract it. With a committee filled with people, all exhausted and all vying for their own preferences during the final rounds, the call may - or may not result in the desired outcome. Gone are the days when a single person can make that decision.</p>
<p>In the case of the OP - his friend expected that those phone calls come automatically as part of a $200,000 tuition bill. His assumption was incorrect. Like I said - the daughter needs to pick up the phone and advocate for herself - and then add to her file to indicate interest. That, more than anything, will tip the scales if they are able to be tipped.</p>
<p>Honestly, I wasn’t trying to be cheeky…I spent many years interviewing for my school, then stopped when my own kids were going through the process. I enjoyed meeting the students, but never felt that my reports had much to do with the outcome. Do you work for MIT then?</p>
<p>Part of what your BS 200plusk goes toward is a stellar college guidance department. Part of that “stellar” is a very close and direct relationship the BS guidance counsellor has with many and varied colleges. When a kid applies ED, thus all but guaranteeing attendance, making a colleges’ yield rate look better, you better believe that admission ppl chat with the guidance counsellors prior to decision date. Most gc’s know who is receiving what kind of answer. There may be some surprises, but they are not the norm. Of course, for the most part this does not apply to the HYPetc. It is completely reasonable for the parents to expect the guidance counsellor to call the college and find out how an application be made stronger(or find out the bad news).
In my experience, the schools that do not have this in place, do not place as many kids in top colleges.</p>
<p>Let’s assume said boarding school has 20 seniors, all strong, who want to go to Yale. All are full pays. Parents donate quite a bit. Yale is NOT going to take all 20 of those students. They may take 6. Do the other 14 families get a refund on their $200K because the counselor failed to make the call or - worse - made the call without the desired result?</p>
<p>There are a lot of assumptions parents make about what their money “buys” them. It is specious at best. The money doesn’t buy college entrance - a hard working student who finds a way to stand out in the pack by taking full advantage of resources does. </p>
<p>You would be surprised how many of those full-ticket kids don’t fit that definition because the family dynamics center around $=front of the line. This spring is going to be a shocker for many for sure.</p>
<p>Re post number29- in the case of the assumed example with Yale - well, actually, no. That scenario can not exist in any but two or three Schools. A GC will never be in a position of 20 top students all competing for one lottery college. The students will be guided to apply to other top schools, and parents who insist( it is usually the parents) that kid still apply to a school which is not recommended by the Gc, that its at " their own risk". it’s all about managing expectations when it comes to BS college guidance, but once the decision has been made vis a vis where to apply ( I’m mainly talking about EDEA)’ the GCs are behind that student all the way.</p>
<p>The comment about 20 stop students was meant to be hyperbole for the sake of argument - a large enough number that most reasonable people would understand it to be large.</p>
<p>Still - in a school with 300 graduating seniors, for instance, it is not unreasonable to think that there are 20 students who all want Yale - or…(fill in the blanks). </p>
<p>And there are some instances where GC’s may suspect there is a clear match for a college, but your comment doesn’t really get to the heart of the original question which is that a number of parents expect that advocacy to be an automatic function of a $200,000 investment. For which I replied, their assumptions are specious and they need to redirect their attention to the fact that the “academic prepwork” was what they paid for - not the end results - which often rests solely with the student’s appeal to any individual college. </p>
<p>GC’s put up with enough in terms of managing expectations without having a helicopter parent waiving a cashed check under their nose and demanding services not in the job description.</p>
<p>Highly competitive colleges are less prone to persuasion and advocacy than smaller, but still well known colleges. But yes - there are instances of relationships that may ease the process a bit. </p>
<p>I just think it’s unrealistic to expect “guarantees” as it is often implied that a “phone call” will secure.</p>
<p>I doubt any parent expects an admission “guarantee” to a particular college. </p>
<p>But I can understand how the “no call” rule my friend describes might frustrate parents regardless of the financial aid status of their children. Then again, perhaps the dramatic increase in college applications now makes it impossible for college admission officers to accept advocacy calls from any prep school college counselor. </p>
<p>Hence, I am curious whether the no advocacy rule my friend describes at his daughter’s well-regarded prep school is an outlier or a new general rule. If it is an outlier, all parents at that prep school may have a right to be upset. If it represents a new trend in college counseling, parents everywhere should perhaps adjust their expectations accordingly.</p>
<p>For prep school parents, this might mean accepting a new normal where college counselors advocate for students only in the recommendations they write or in the responses they make to questions college admission officers may ask about a particular student. For prospective prep school parents, this would mean further deemphasizing college admission as a factor in prep school selection. </p>
<p>But I get ahead of myself – the question still remains whether this “no call” rule is an aberration or a new universal standard.</p>
<ol>
<li> On the question of whether prep school counselors can call colleges to advocate on behalf of their students, Logan reveals:</li>
</ol>
<p>“A lot of parents think, ‘This is Andover, so you’re going to be able to pick up the phone and advocate for my child.’ We’re going to be able to do that in the application process, but in most highly selective schools now, the numbers don’t permit phone calls. I worked at Stanford in the mid-’90s. They had 18,000 applications. They admitted 2,100 students. Last year Stanford had 37,000 applications, and they admitted about the same number. The time frame hasn’t changed, but they need to evaluate almost double the applications. Because of that, Stanford’s not taking a call from us to advocate for our students. But they may call us and say, “We really like this student. Can you have him/her submit something else? Or can you give me a little bit more?” Great. I’ll be the student’s biggest advocate. But every spot is precious, so they’re not giving them away.”</p>
<ol>
<li> On the broader issue of what weight parents should give college admission in the prep school selection process, Logan advises:</li>
</ol>
<p>“I tell parents, ‘If your main reason for sending your student to Phillips Academy is to get into a great college, that is a mistake. I can’t guarantee that.’ I can guarantee they’re going to get an amazing education, and I can do that because I’ve visited well over 300 high schools in my life—domestically and internationally. This is a really unique community, and our kids capitalize on that.”</p>
<p>Long Story Made Short Part 1: don’t expect a prep school to make personal advocacy calls on behalf of your child to most highly selective colleges. </p>
<p>Long Story Made Short Part 2: don’t choose a prep school primarily because you believe it will provide your child a comparative advantage in college admission.</p>
<p>Well, most of his talk was abut what he wouldn’t do and couldn’t garantee, which is reasonable, but what would/could he or the college counseling DO facing the “changed landscape”? There’s a bigger strategy to “sell” their students more effectively than just picking up the phone and advocating for individuals. I’d like to see him talk and act more on that.</p>
<p>I think Mr. Logan is in a hot seat. With so many strong applications from public schools all over the country, it’s hard to make his kids stand out. He realizes that and so he is trying to lower the student/parent expectations before the inevitable.</p>
<p>You make an excellent point. But I wonder what else any prep school can do. Certainly, the college counselor can write a good recommendation, field questions about specific students, and maybe speak to college admission officers if they happen to visit their school. Moreover, as Sean Logan only ruled out advocacy calls “to most selective schools,” there may be some selective schools that will accept calls. Beyond that, however, I’m not sure what prep schools can do. Any thoughts? </p>
<p>JQuinn,</p>
<p>I agree that Sean Logan may be trying to manage expectations. But I think we should applaud his candor and welcome his most helpful comments. As his remarks seem to have universal application, I hope no one will use them to criticize any particular school. The fact that prep schools cannot make advocacy calls to most selective schools does not make a poor college choice “inevitable” at any prep school. I’m sure you would agree that a high percentage of prep school students routinely get admitted to top colleges.</p>
<p>There’s a lot a school could do to “arm” their students with what the colleges want, especially in private schools where decisions could be made promptly in reaction to the new reality, in the best interests of the community. For example, more advanced classes, seminars, and independent research opportunities open to more students early on (vs only open to upperclassmen), opportunities to mentor students and have them attend more academic and extracurricular competitions, more school sponsored summer tours, more leadership positions at various levels, more meaningful off campus volunteer programs, more emphasis on standardized tests, etc. etc. Granted, these are not what college couseling does per se, but they are in a better position to feed the school administration ideas and get the ball rolling. On the other hand, what they could do is to aggressively campaign for their school, and convince the colleges why it’s NOT decreasing the colleges’ diversity by accepting more students from a school like Andover, and of course build the long term relationship with the most selective colleges. While I understand it’s always easier said than done, it’s a little discouraging to see Mr Sean Logan was not even try to address the challenges “head on”.</p>
<p>I agree prep school shouldn’t be considered a gateway to the most selective colleges, but it is part of the equation so there’s a balance point to find. Sure “amazing education” is more important than a college destination, but college destination is the next most important for high schoolers, in my dictionary.</p>
<p>If the education is “amazing”, shouldn’t that automatically lead you to your college destination? Otherwise how would it be “amazing?”, pretty average I would say. They don’t have to be either or.</p>
This spring is going to be a shocker for many for sure.</p>