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Not necessarily. You can’t say everyone in Harvard has received an “amazing” HS education or everyone in a non-ivy college has received a lousy HS education. An education at Andover is not “average” by any measure, and its college matriculation records are amazing too. However, there’s a lot they could do, considering the “changes in college admissions landscape”.</p>
<p>“On the other hand, what they could do is to aggressively campaign for their school, and convince the colleges why it’s NOT decreasing the colleges’ diversity by accepting more students from a school like Andover, and of course build the long term relationship with the most selective colleges.”</p>
<p>^I agree with this Alden. Schools need to emphasize with the colleges just how far and deep the talent is among the student body at these schools. It’s not just the top 25 percent; kids who might have been at the top of their class at a local school, might find themselves in the middle of the pack or lower at an Andover or Exeter. I think any parent here with a child at BS can attest to this. In my S’s sophomore math class of 10 kids, that small group included a senior who was on the United States Olympiad math team, and another student who was a world junior chess champion. This is what these kids are compared against, and sometimes to their detriment. Still, this is why they want to be there as well – to be challenged. BSs need to express to colleges just how tough their curriculum is, and also how deep the talent of their student body is, in so many areas too (from academics, to music, to athletics). I also have a child at a local public high school, and I can assure you, there is just no comparison.</p>
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<p>You don’t think colleges already don’t KNOW how well educated Andover students are? (or Exeter, or St. Paul’s or …). They know - they have lots of students and alum from those tracks. Why would the school need to “sell” itself? I finally had to tell a local school that has an amazing program (high school students are paired with corporations and mentors and some are starting businesses and filing patents) to stop trying to “sell” what is already sold. The emails and the video clips from news broadcasts and the calls to advocate for specific students. </p>
<p>What I told him is that colleges aren’t accepting a school, they’re accepting a STUDENT (warts and all). And unfortunately, as it is with boarding schools, there just isn’t enough room for everyone. And certainly it isn’t desirable for a college to fill its ranks with students from the same pool of schools given how many choices they have world-wide.</p>
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<p>Yes - The job of preparing the student for college starts the minute they walk on the boarding school campus. But that may not always jibe with parent expectations. Counseling isn’t something that starts junior or senior year. It starts with course selections, activities, etc.</p>
<p>But here’s the caveat - ----</p>
<p>The reality is - no matter how good a student is - the possibility is that in that particular year they might not stand out. And I’ve seen an odd trend of parents pushing the same ubiquitous stats on their students which actually circumvents the process. More than a year ago I heard “don’t let your daughter go overseas because she’ll miss all those AP courses during Jr year” and it made me wonder how competitive their own child would be if the ONLY attributes they had was how many AP courses they loaded up on absent of other things on their resume.</p>
<p>If all parents focus on is “which” activity will give their child an edge, they miss the point of the experience, and may also misjudge what a college wants that particular year. Skip that poetry class and load up on an extra science? Maybe that’s the year the poetry would have put them over the top. Colleges don’t want just “numerical stats” - every applicant is coming in with those - too many with similar stats and preparation. They want PASSIONATE. They want INTERESTING. They want - a whole host of other things that aren’t controlled by a counselor including something other than going on school sponsored trips to dig yet another toilet in a third world country.</p>
<p>So those “imperfect” students who got into Harvard might just have been more “interesting.” It happens. They aren’t “less” qualified because they didn’t follow some preplanned “get into IVY” free path. Parents want to believe that just attending BS should equate to “feeder.” Those days are long, long gone. Every year some students are taken because the educational quality is an asset. But that doesn’t mean it will happen for everyone that wants that outcome.</p>
<p>The Andover comments are a gift. Because it’s the truth. I know parents want THEIR student to be the one who gets the nod and it feels personal when they don’t. If the student isn’t attractive or a stand-out in a pool of applications numbering in the tens of thousands, a phone call isn’t going to do anything more than irritate already overworked Adcoms.</p>
<p>The Andover quote bears repeating:</p>
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<p>I may be warped/old fashioned, but isn’t it the responsibility of the student to advocate for themselves via their grades, extracurricular activities, essays, board scores etc? And isn’t it the responsibility of the College Counselor/Parents to work with the student to help draw out their interests, environment, culture, distances and probabilities for acceptance?</p>
<p>I think it sounds like an incredibly convenient line of thought, probably supported by scant facts about secret handshakes, ‘bribes’, and calls in the middle of the night where students are accepted into places where they may not be the best fit, nor properly prepared. It may make parents, and perhaps students, feel better when they go to sleep thinking that the reason they were not accepted to a college is because of the above, rather than more objective criteria.</p>
<p>As an Andover parent, I do not expect ANY 'over the top advocating. Instead, I hope for sober, professional, fact driven recommendations, and advice for my kid on how to best present their strengths. Sure if a school calls for more color, I hope the Counselor presents things positively, but do I want her to weave a story of half-truths that tarnish her reputation and that of the school? If that means we are not ‘Ivy bound’, so be it. We are still grateful for the opportunity for our kid to experience a great secondary education and life experience.</p>
<p>Exie – yikes – now I’m reminded why I seldom post here. But no, I actually don’t think colleges are always aware of some of the BSs programs (there are many out there beyond Andover and Exeter). But I agree that of course it is up to the students to advocate and prepare themselves, and follow their dreams as well. Look, we are thrilled with how things turned out for our S who is at his first choice school – (though I better add that it is not the reason he wanted to go to BS), and also think his GC was first rate. So no complaints there. But I still think some schools probably could and should make a better case for themselves for the benefit of all of their students.</p>
<p>GCs are not only representing individual students, they have the whole class to consider. For example, Exeter has a policy that if a student is admitted early (not even binding, just early action) to a school with less than 10% acceptance rate, no other applications are allowed.</p>
<p>So, got into a “lesser Ivy” as an EA playing the legacy or athletic card, but want to try for H regular admission? Nope. Not allowed to apply.</p>
<p>The idea is to avoid one student taking selective slots at many colleges, in order for more Exeter students to have a chance at them. It only applies to early action/early decision acceptances, but can have substantial impact on the choice of early applications.</p>
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My point was that schools should create opportunities so students with different passion and interests could tap into those opportunities and stand out in their own ways. This isn’t meant to maximize the chance of getting in ONE particular selective college, which may want something different for a particular year. But the most selective colleges cannot all want the same thing the same year. This is not a guessing game. It’s about tapping one’s potential to the fullest and make the strongest possible case of one’s own.</p>
<p>I can’t help wondering - is it that you are a little naive or do you think parents here are that naive?</p>
<p>The issue now is not whether a prep school will exercise its influence to make an advocacy call on behalf of a student. It is how the no call rule will impact the college admission process at prep schools. While some believe that prep schools can compensate for this loss of influence in other ways, I am less optimistic about that prospect. </p>
<p>Top prep schools already do an extraordinary job of providing unparalleled academic, extracurricular, leadership, and summer enrichment opportunities for their students. Moreover, selective colleges are exceedingly well aware of the exceptional education top prep schools offer. </p>
<p>I’m sure there is room for improvement in these areas as Alden and Skibum importantly observe. But, I doubt there can be dramatic improvements at top prep schools that already excel in these areas. The situation, of course, may differ at prep schools with less robust curricular options, extra-curricular activities, or reputations.</p>
<p>In any event, Sean Logan’s comments positively suggest the need for a paradigm shift in how parents view the prep school college admission process. Whether we like it or not, the power of prep schools to shape favorable college admissions outcomes may be considerably less than many of us heretofore thought.</p>
<p>Alden,</p>
<p>I don’t think all parents are that naive, but I’ve been on the boards long enough to have to push some students to reach out to their school counselors when they reported being pressured to load up on certain AP course at the expense of things that interested them. And my husband and I have seen enough “hovering” parents at interviews to know there is a subset that represents the extreme (my hubby is a Adcom so he also gets the angry “why didn’t my kid get in” calls and once related that a father attended his son’s interview to insure he answered the questions correctly 
). At his school it has become so bad that during school tours the parents and students are separated and the students are told to quietly flag a staff member if they are being pushed to apply to please their parents. One student submitted answers to the essays so absurd that the committee understood it was the only way to kill her application given the push from parents who probably saw a different “draft.”</p>
<p>And, like I said, I also witnessed the extreme reaction to my own child’s decision to spend a year abroad which resulted in a number of well-meaning board members sending me PM’s telling me it would ruin her college chances (it didn’t). </p>
<p>But I mostly make counter arguments so all those people who “lurk” but don’t post see both sides. If families can look at the bigger picture, the connections and extreme academic environment of boarding schools may actually have longer term benefits than just influencing what college the student happens to attend. </p>
<p>@JMilton - absolutely - Although I’m not sure what prep schools can do to “compensate” for a no call rule. All the prep work should already be in place starting on day one of enrollment. I do know that my daughter’s school did a comprehensive profile and then asked us to weigh in our own thoughts about significant events, factors in her life before she entered the school so they could build a complete picture. I appreciated the opportunity to have input although I found the schools’ own letters that came with her grade reports throughout her tenure demonstrated a strong awareness of her strengths beyond her academics. The staff is also reading and critiquing essays and helping students craft strong supporting documents. I appreciated that they were still “working” throughout the Christmas holidays making sure students were aware of any lingering deadlines, portfolio requirements, etc. </p>
<p>But honestly - when I add up how much money one spends on tuition and ancillary costs to send a child away - I do, truly, understand why there is anxiety over college results and elevated expectations that boarding schools can influence the outcome. That was true years ago when the schools were true feeders. Not so much anymore.</p>
<p>I think many parents - those who have been somewhat sophiscated at least - know that prep school nowadays is not a garantee of top college admission. A decade ago, they might say “I want my kid to be in a top BS so he/she has a better chance for a top college”. Today, they might say “I want my kid to have that amazing education at a top BS even if it’s not helping college admissions”. And what I see on this forum over and over again is parents saying “I want my kid to have that amazing education despite the fact that it might slightly hurt their chances of getting in a top college”. I understand Mr. Logan was trying to manage the expectations of those who are caught up in the process, but there should be another piece in that conversation. Let’s face it. Top schools WILL be looked at on how their graduated are received by the outside world - and college is the first test of that measure. Just as with top colleges, while most people go their for the “amazing education”, they will ask if their graduates are well received by top graduate programs and reputable employers. No organization is living in a bubble. So, if one day enough people say “OK. If you want an amazing HS education go to Andover, but if you want a top college don’t go because it will definetely hurt your chances”, that’s when the school officially signs off from the competition in the “changed landscape” and take comfort living in their own bubble. I am not seeing it happening now because to me the school is still taking college admissions seriously and try to improve the process.</p>
<p>Back to the “advocacy calls” - should the CC call to advocate individual students? Not for everyone. But if your top academic performer, top atheletes, leaders on campus…are “shortchanged” by the top colleges, or the good but not excellent students are by second tier colleges, they SHOULD intervene - call or in other means. CC in private schools is or it should be hard work. There’s more than just “managing expectations”.</p>
<p>One thing to think about. Yes, top schools are sometimes scrutinized by their college admissions, but if those parents went away there would be no shortage of parents who don’t use that as a primary indicator. PEA has over 3,000 applications for approx. 300 spots. </p>
<p>The question I and other alums posed at PEA recently - was “is the success of a student tied to the enhancements they receive on campus, or does the school now cherry pick students who are well on their way before they land on campus?” The former is an indicator of strong educational climate. The latter is an indication of cherry picking to hedge their bets. The test, I postured, was when they take students who have the talent and aptitude but lack the resources locally and grow that potential on campus. That, we all agreed, was the whole point of funding a middle class scholarship endowment. Not to fund students who have every imaginable advantage and unlimited resources at home, but to broaden the opportunities for gifted students who don’t. The success of “those” students represents a more clear measure of whether Harkness methods and the course curriculums are superior products.</p>
<p>On CC, when I first started posting, a large percentage of the posts were from parents and students who saw boarding school - PEA, Andover and SPS in particular - as clear paths to an IVY. In some cases, the “debates” on these boards often bordered on angry - with prospective parents waving stats gleaned from newspaper articles and BS Review as “proof” of which school was better. Those of us closer to the situation suggested stats are easily manipulated by simply admitting those students clearly on the trajectory already and may have little to do with what they encountered once on campus. That may explain why you see fewer of those assertions now than over the last few years.</p>
<p>I meant to edit, but ran into the CC time limit. A better thought since even the Andover post coincides with my personal theorem on why making that “call” may hurt more than help. </p>
<p>The key is putting together a strong, compelling package for admissions, not calling an Adcom to explain why they missed something. It’s why - at least at MIT - interviews are mandatory and we go through great lengths to get through every student - even if it means SKYPING those who are international. Because it “fills in the blanks” in a way an Adcom call cannot.</p>
<p>That “amazing” student a CC advocates for may be the one who showed up to my interview 2 hours late and played with his phone. Or the one who wore a suit and - impressed with his academic prowess - demanded I “sell him” on MIT. It may be the student who showed up at my husband’s interview and bragged about a hobby (which turns out to be my DH’s passion) and then, upon questioning, had exaggerated his/her experiences. Or it may be the student who - upon probing - doesn’t know one darn thing about MIT that can’t be gleaned from the Admissions website, can’t articulate how they’d fit into the culture or what they could offer us, or can’t demonstrate a passion for something. Or told me it was the parent’s idea for them to apply. Can I tell you how many “gifted” top scoring students give me the name of a book they’ve read but then can’t explain the plot, a major event in the book, or the character arc?</p>
<p>On the other hand, that “amazing” student we admit may be the shy kid who has to be drawn out and flies under the radar. Or we discover during the session that they did something they thought mundane but in our eyes was compelling (because they did it for fun, not for application purposes). </p>
<p>Amazing to a counselor or parent isn’t necessarily “amazing” to an Adcom looking at 1,000 other students with identical stats and activities. And why would we give the CC the answer? At least one local private school has been trying to “figure out” the puzzle for years and keeps sending me students with identical profiles to a student we admitted ten years ago. And complains that we’re tough because we haven’t taken any more. Actually - it was something the previous student and parent said during my interview that triggered me to flag his file and lead to an admissions offer - an activity that was huge but under the radar as far as the school was concerned. Something that was not on his application but ended up being explain at length in my report after I received proof of it. But if I told the CC what it was, they’d just manufacture clones - and it wouldn’t work. Once in a million is just that - once in a million.</p>
<p>Which is why I say - if a parent is looking for a guarantee - on college admission or for a CC call - keep the student local. That $200,000 would be a waste of money. </p>
<p>If you’re looking for an amazing education and unparalleled cultural diversity, BS is a good bet for the right student. Want your child to have the best chance at admissions - get out of the way and let them shine in things they are passionate about. Let them be free to be something more than a set of quantitative stats and ubiquitous EC’s. That’s the largest part of the battle. Finding passionate intriguing students, not perfectly coached and prepped ones…For what its worth - that’s been the trend during my husband’s admission’s council meetings and the college I interview for.</p>
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<p>^^^This was a basic theme of College Information Weekend last week at Choate where they did a masterful job of conveying two messages: 1) there are more than five colleges out there, and 2) parents, back off! </p>
<p>Prior to the keynote address, while the auditorium was filling up, a silent Where did They go to College? slideshow was playing, much like those movie trivia questions shown before a feature film starts. Each slide showed a well-known face with five colleges listed beneath. As you watched, the more famous colleges melted away, leaving the underdog that the successful person attended. No mention was made of the slideshow, but I had to chuckle at the choice of not-so-subliminal filler.</p>
<p>If a keynote address is meant to establish an underlying theme, Dr. Barbara Hofers (Middlebury College, author of * The iConnected Parent: Staying Connected to Your College Kids (and Beyond) While Letting Them Grow Up*) speech focusing on how technology has enabled out-of-control communication between students and parents sent another not-so-subtle message: its time to let go.</p>
<p>Later, a panel of college AOs talked about the application processes at their schools and made it pretty clear that, among other things, each has a dont-call-us-well-call-you policy.</p>
<p>Most revealing was the Mock Admission Committee session, where all attendees were given three applicant profiles along with background information on the selective fictitious university they were applying to (history/tradition, financial state, diversity goals, etc.). The session was led by a twenty-year AO vet from a nearby college who gave us one directive: you can admit only one of these students, you must waitlist one, and deny the other. The rest of the session was spent discussing why we would admit, deny, or waitlist each applicant. The group was very divided with many parents passionately arguing for very different outcomes. The lively discussion clearly showed how so many non-quantitative factors go into making these hard decisions; there was no consensus. At the end of the session, the AO told us that our spontaneous process was very much like what happens behind the doors at her college. As she started to leave, one parent said, Wait! What did Fictitious University do? Almost as an afterthought, the AO gave the results to the satisfaction of very few. It was a real eye-opener.</p>
<p>DH and I split up to cover the remaining sessions relevant to fourth-form parents and our student in particular. When we reconvened, we came to the happy conclusion that DS is already on their radar, and we learned firsthand that the college application process at Choate is personal, it is specific, it is known, and it has started already. We are not required to assist the college counseling office in doing what they clearly do so well, nor do we need to worry about how they will advocate for DS. They are already guiding him toward his best result by supporting his passion, helping him find the right balance among all the demands on his time, advising him on his curriculum, celebrating his successes, and lifting him up in those areas where he needs help. They are already helping him craft his unique story in a way that a phone call could never capture. We left confident that DS is in great hands and convinced that, as Exie posted above, our best strategy is just to get out of his and the CC offices way.</p>
<p>So glad it was a success ChoatieMom! Did they have a breakout session on financial aid this year? That guy was really good. I found that the whole college process was made really easy for us…in fact, I ended up sharing the notes from the weekend with a public school parent friend, particularly the FAFSA vs. CSS Profile chart.</p>
<p>Yes, BSR, there was a financial aid session, but we did not attend, so I don’t have any report there. :(</p>
<p>I went through a similar “admissions committee” exercise during the fall of my child’s senior year and I think it was a valuable experience for many of the parents. Most of the parents in my group advocated for the applicant with the perfect grades and sat scores and were shocked to learn that the applicant with less than perfect scores/grades but who had real passion, personality and real interest in the school was the candidate who was accepted.</p>
<p>An applicant (whether for BS or college) is so much more than his or her scores.</p>
<p>My youngest is not currently in the college admission process. But as I have older children who have graduated from elite colleges, I think I can reliably say that SAT scores matter depending on the circumstances. For example, a top-five university might very well choose an unhooked applicant with a 2,300 SAT and a demonstrated passion over an unhooked applicant with a 2,400 SAT and no demonstrated passion. By contrast, it is unlikely that any top-10 university or top-3 college would admit an unhooked applicant with a demonstrated passion who scored below 1,900 on the SAT absent something uniquely and extraordinarily outstanding about that candidate.</p>
<p>The advice for parents “to get out of the way” has limited utility. There is no way a college counselor can possibly know your child as well as you do. Nor can a college counselor even remotely understand the nuances of your financial situation as well as you do if your child needs financial aid. Hence, a parent’s view should importantly and necessarily supplement – not supplant – a college counselor’s advice. To be sure, your child and his or her counselor should own the process. But be wary of advice for you “to get out of the way.” It may help your child’s counselor far more than it helps your child or you.</p>
<p>I don’t remember anyone saying that an unhooked kid, absent of extraordinary circumstances will get into a competitive college with a 1900. Even a hooked student is unlikely because there are too many other students with those attributes who have already passed that hurdle. That just sounds like more excuses, IMHO.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I can’t say this enough - the tests are one-size-fits all, are influenced by which students are “prepped” and “coached” and don’t always indicate future performance. They also don’t reflect differences in learning styles and methods of processing information. Which is why someone with a lower than expected score might actually be a top performing student once on campus.</p>
<p>My issue of “get out of the way” is mostly aimed at the parents who pressure their students to take specific courses, force them to forgo specific experiences, etc. based misguided information and/or goals that is more parent drive then student centered. And why on Earth would a school’s stature make a difference if its not reflected in the application? If the student didn’t “qualify” themselves during their tenure at prep school (with all the ongoing counseling that starts from day one at many schools) then no magic lamp is going to improve the situation. </p>
<p>BTW - A deferment is actually a good thing since many students are denied outright during Early Action. After a deferment is made, the student should add additional things to their file to show they are still interested. Adult intervention after a student is deferred is a good way to send them to the “no” pile. </p>
<p>Coach the student - yes. Advocate for them - no.</p>
<p>And the issue of “counselors can’t know a student as well as a parent” is only true to a point. Theoretically, the school has just spent 3-4 years working 24-7 with the student and good knowledge of their academic and extracurricular performance. If anything, I’ve found counselors to be more objective than parents. That doesn’t mean parents shouldn’t play a role. They should be involved. Just in moderation (versus dictation and helicopter impersonations).</p>
<p>I’m in the camp of an earlier poster - it is the student’s job to advocate for themselves and navigate the applications. Yes - parents and students should be partners on setting realistic financial options, but in all other aspects, I’ve seen some (not all) but some parents get far too involved and it automatically flags an otherwise good student as “not ready for prime time” in an applicant pool where there are thousands of others who have already shed their “training wheels.” Got to cut that cord sometime and let the “student” take the lead.</p>
<p>Exie,</p>
<p>I was responding to an earlier comment that kids are much more than their SAT scores. From a non-college admission perspective that’s unarguably true. From a college admission perspective, it’s true in some, but not all, circumstances at least in my experience. Hence, I posed the example of a 1,900 SAT score to illustrate that idea. As a point of interest, do hooked candidates such as legacies receive a bump in their SAT scores at your husband’s college?</p>
<p>I think we both agree that parents should play a support role only in the college admission process. However, I sincerely doubt that even the best prep school college counselor knows a student better than his parents typically do. My experience with prep school college counselors has been uniformly excellent. However, I know parents who can parade their horrible experiences with college counselors just as easily as you parade your examples of overbearing parents. </p>
<p>The college counselor may be more objective than the parents. But that objectivity does not always benefit an individual student. The college counselor is responsible to all his counselees, not any one particular student. Hence, there are circumstances where the good of the many may outweigh the good of an individual student. This may be unavoidable collateral damage. But if it happens, many parents will understandably feel the responsibility to sensibly advocate for their child, instead of just “getting out of the way.”</p>
<p>Andover upper child just finished 2nd meeting with CA. Substance of the meeting was ACT vs SAT, whether to get tutoring to improve scores (not worth it as it would detract from academic performance), timing and selection of SAT II’s and some suggestions of schools to see on Spring break. Great advice given and no parent tension. Whew.</p>