@MAandMEmom I think what you are suggesting is truth in advertising. There is the open debate about whether one should pay for a top private school for the experience itself or for an edge in college admissions. The WSJ and others have analyzed tuition ROI on matriculation success in the past. It’s a lot of money and a fair assessment.
I say to each his/her own so if you are investing $50K x 4 years for an edge in admissions you should have an accurate representation of your success rate based on past performance. Wall Street could not legally take $200K from you without some transparency.
If HADES schools are putting up high Ivy matriculation numbers but 80%+ of those are going to legacies, big donors, and URM and you don’t fall into one of those categories then some truth in advertising ethics should kick in. If you don’t know well enough how much these special categories are at play within these institutions because they are not transparent with that data then you could over estimate your chances of investment success by 4x.
Here’s some truth in advertising - ask any head of school whether they are selling you an education for your child or college matriculation. I have no doubt they’ll tell you the former. That’s their product. The schools do not owe you any more transparency on their college matriculations. If you object, there are others waiting in the wings for the spot who will value the education and experience beyond Ivy placement.
“Wall Street could not legally take $200K from you without some transparency.”
No relevance here. Apples and oranges.
Legacies, development cases, don’t forget recruited athletes, etc. - of course they have an advantage at some colleges, from all high schools not just private or boarding schools. You don’t need it spelled out in detail to discount any outliers or realize that if your kid doesn’t have a hook, he/she has less chance.
Bottom line:
not all Ivy admits have a hook
focus less on prestige and more on fit and your kid will be fine
I think the acronyms are silly, too, but I think we agreed on a thread several years ago that Choate definitely should be included among the most CHASED schools.
Although I agree with @ChoatieMom we shouldn’t get hung up and focused on the acronym and who belongs and who doesn’t. The point is that elite BSs may be sending less students to Ivies and elites, but there are some not just Andover and Exeter that have track records worth mentioning.
Does anyone here actually think that the high schools are getting these students into the colleges? The “track record” is set on M10; they are cherry-picking students into their ranks who they already know will be good candidates for good colleges. No student is getting into any college just because s/he went to .
^^I think there are a fraction of students, those who get admitted with full FA, who might have gotten lost in their local public high school, are getting golden tickets to elite colleges because of the opportunities afforded by “your acronym” BS here, but not the majority who as you state are a self selected bunch of over-achievers.
I certainly don’t. No school will get one in to a particular college. Colleges do not admit students solely based upon what HS they attended. A student’s achievements (academic and otherwise) are what gets him/her accepted to a university. Having said that, many many schools will provide the tools to help one be a better applicant. However, it’s up to the student to make use of these resources.
@divdad - DH and I have been on the AC and faculties of three medical schools in the past 25 years… I think there is still a crude stereotype of boarding schools being perpetuated by posters on CC. Feeding to certain schools, blah, blah, blah… When you look at the amount of FA given by boarding schools and the international population, these schools provide an exceptional experience for students beyond the classroom…what an amazing opportunity to attend BS - it’s not about getting into an Ivy. It’s not a place to use as a launchpad into “elite” colleges. Some parents think of BS as an investment into getting their kids into a highly ranked university. Snap out of it!!
Regarding trying to plot a path from BS to Ivies to elite grad schools: I can tell you that sometimes a degree from a certain “Ivy” actually hurts an applicant because of the school’s poor track record in graduating and preparing students for careers in “real world” medicine. For example, you can’t argue your way out of a medical case. You better be prepared to get your hands dirty. Sorry “Snowflake”, here is a trigger warning: There will be blood.
If you read posts on CC from the past few years you will see that boarding school is not about getting into an “elite” university or an “Ivy”. I agree with @Calimex regarding networking in NYC via university clubs. DH and I never even joined a university-affiliated club in NYC. Also, as members of two large alumni organizations, relatively few graduates even participated in NYC events after graduation. Who has time? I think the BS alumni groups may have even better networking, at least I can speak for the girls schools.
Here is my golf tip for the day…some of the schools (BS and College) often mentioned on CC are like “sucker pins” on the greens. Don’t go for a sucker pin, go for the middle of the green >:/
@divdad when you’re looking at matriculation numbers you need to use %s, otherwise it’s not an accurate comparison. The relative difference in graduating class-size between Andover & Groton (for example) is significant.
@GMC2918 Completely agree on the % of graduating class as a metric. That’s exactly what the WSJ did when they wrote an article that explored the ROI on Ivy matriculation. The article over ten years old at this point but I don’t think the % of graduating class numbers have shifted too much since then.
@skieurope Though I agree with your sentiments that a great student will do well in almost any school there has been some legitimate scholarship and research papers published by professional sociologists who specialize in “elites” and how they historically have manipulated advantage for their children.
@Golfgr8 's I appreciate your advice to “Snap out of it!” but you are preaching to the choir. I am aware of the benefits of an BS education as a stand alone product.
I’ve read Shamus Khan’s work and also that of some of his peers. That’s where my focus is. Getting back to the original point of the thread, exploring dropping trends in BS EA/ED numbers, what I am curious to understand is are this year’s numbers drop a tipping point or an outlier?
Have the accumulation of societal movements – same sex marriage, taking down the Confederate flag, Black Lives Matter, #MeToo, #TimesUp, finally come knocking on the admissions offices of the Ivy League?
Will the admissions committees collectively step away from decades old, even centuries old, relationships with elite private schools and stop giving private schools disproportionate slots in their incoming classes and open up their doors to the public school 99%? If not now then when? And like it or not some families view these schools as stepping stones (i.e. the WSJ article linked above) and when they are no longer stepping stones what will that do to their perceived value? Finland, as a counter example, has outlawed private schools.
Completely anecdotal, but among my DD’s friends at BS and NYC private schools, some of the top "unhooked"applicants have already anticipated the increase in ED apps (and subsequent competitiveness) and are using their ED opportunity to target other, non-HYP schools. My nephew, a tippy-top kid, didn’t want to “waste” his early application on Harvard. He applied ED to Duke instead and got in. Not that Duke is all that easy, but taking that chance on Harvard wasn’t worth it to him, because if he didn’t get in SCEA, chances are he wouldn’t have made it in to Duke during regular admissions. At least that was his thinking and I would imagine, the thinking of his CC. At a couple NYC schools that I’m familiar with, HYP early apps have been decreasing slightly, while the Dukes, Bowdoins and Tufts (and many more) have been increasing. I wonder if others have noticed the same.
^^You have to be careful with this logic. Our student tried a small LAC instead of ivy for her early card when she easily qualified for an ivy. Keep in mind the small top LACS have few spots and the early round is usu saved for recruited athletes, first gen, kids from the diversity programs etc. So that didn’t work. You have to use your early card wisely and choose a big enough school with enough seats.
This thread is making me nervous as my kid(s) have grades, SATs, ECs, recognition in her field of study and much more, but dar(x) it we need need based aid and we are ORMs.
If you qualify for need based aid, many schools are very generous. Many excellent small schools, especially those in less urban locations, would view your ORM child as desirable. My suggestion is to look at schools that aren’t the ones overapplied to by BS students. Look at different regions. There are many great colleges out there beyond the same old names at the top of the USNews top rankings.
@infinityprep1234: I’m going to be less sanguine than doschicos and say (as a fellow ORM parent) that you SHOULD be nervous. Especially if your kids are targeting the usual suspects (Ivies+M/S) of the BS college application world. I’ve shared the story of 7D1 on other threads…she’s was a NMF with great grades, scores, experience in her desired field of study, etc. etc. And yet, she went 1 for 4 on the more selective colleges in her application mix (vs. 5 for 5 on the others). In the end she chose a full-ride at a state flagship with a top 10 program in her major over the one “elite” school that accepted her. And it’s been a great experience overall.
I would recommend you heed doschicos’ great advice in post #33, namely: “Look at schools that aren’t the ones overapplied to by BS students”.
And don’t be nervous. Nervous about what? ALL of our BS kids WILL go to excellent colleges. Every one of them. If anyone is still defining “excellent” too narrowly, time to let that go. As a parent, you have ZERO control over outcomes at this stage, if you ever had any to begin with.
@infinityprep1234 as an ORM family agree also with SevenD, the bar is higher at the elites for Asian and other ORM kids. My student also from a top BS, Cum Laude, 4 year Varsity Athlete, but unhooked (national ranks and awards) also ended up at OOS State Flagship College. Top students will always have choices, but it may not be the ones you wanted. And I agree with ChoatieMom usu 99% of the time, including when its time.
We have three kids, two girls are already attending different top ten prep school on substantial need based aid. We were not nervous when first daughter appiled to prep school as we knew that she can stay home and still get decent education.
Our daughter is a junior and want to graduate in computer science. We are not looking ivies but rather top computer science program. Unfortunately Berkley, UUIC are vety top notch cs school, but do not give much need baded aid. Daughter is looking into MIT, CMU, Georgia Tech, NCS, RPI, WPI etc. But I read even those colleges are very hatd to get into. Nervous but will see what happens.
we are looking MIT, CMU as they are top CS school, daughter has done exceedingly well in the hardest course load at prep school, and have many outside awards and free or paid internship in CS. Not too many girls apply to MIT and CMU for CS from her prep school. Yes many thanks for the suggestions as we navigate the total new college admission process.
all you have to do is ask your kids who is getting in where and look at naviance: URM, legacy, richie rich and athletes are the lion’s share of acceptances to top schools
