@romanigypsyeyes - It’s not just sports. Band has fund raisers, the school newspaper has fund raisers, and my kids sold Christmas wrapping paper when they were in Elementary school…money just for the general fund of the school, and when the school district needs a big-ticket item, there’s a fund raiser for it, academic programs are threatened to be cut if a levy doesn’t pass, etc.
Community College is a very affordable option already and in much better shape (filling the need) than most public schools. The fail rate at Community Colleges is too high already. Now, we want to throw money to help even more students (many of whom shouldn’t be there) enter Community College and fail? I just can’t get behind that.
If the government wants to provide full-ride SCHOLARSHIPS to stellar students who can’t otherwise afford to go to college (either due to a life situation or a monetary one), then I’m all for that. To open it up for everyone though?..nope. College is not a right, and college is not for everyone.
I’m 28, worked full time for 7 years until a full year of unemployment in 2014. I met with an accountant and financial aid counselor who said because of my age and the amount of help I received from my parents last year (very little) I had a few options available that are not there for the the under 24 crowd. I was a bit worried about it as well at first… but it seems that the guys I talked to were correct about it. I was even chosen and passed the FASFA verification process.
What I was offered.
Pell Grant 5700
Sub Stafford Loan 3374
UnSub Stafford Loan 6000
Federal Work Study 3000
That’s 18,074 in Federal Aid right there. So you are correct about it coming in around 15k without the work study added in. I considered that Federal Aid. Is it not? And I did include a 3,000 school need based grant in there from the public uni. My mistake on that.
I’m only trying to give him hope that the aid could be there for him. I really thought I would never get another chance at finishing my degree… and when the financial aid letter came in I shed a few tears. I think if you planned on teaching there is an extra 3000 or so federal grant that is available as well for certain majors…
I’m not sure what the options are for someone under 24. I just assumed the other poster might have been a little bit older. He said he was working full time and been out of high school for awhile. I guess I’m the “old man” in college now. That’s sad to think about
“College is not a right, and college is not for everyone”
Very true. However, we live in a society where much trade schooling is done through colleges, specifically community colleges. Making that training more affordable helps those who aren’t necessarily academic college material but who still need additional education. Right now, in many areas, the only schools besides community colleges who fill that void are ripoff for-profit schools. My hunch is a lot of lobbying against Obama’s community college proposal will be funded by the Art “Institutes”, etc., of this world who stand to lose a lot of prospective students.
Ok, let me be more clear stepay: I think that money should go to academics before it goes to any extra curricular activities.
I firmly, 100% believe in ECs and think they’re great for people to participate in. However, I would rather pay for academics through college before funding ECs at any level.
@romanigypsyeyes - Ok…I would agree with that with some caveats - 1) I don’t consider Band to be an EC. Lots of musicians out there who pursue it as an academic endeavor. Much of the fund raising that schools do don’t go to ECs. Fixing secondary school should be primary.
@katliamom - I would agree with your sentiment if Community Colleges were more successful in graduating students and/or getting them to move on to 4-year universities. The very nature of Community Colleges already lures students who really have no business going to college. This initiative will just attract an even lower level student. I just don’t see this helping a poor smart student who couldn’t go otherwise. IF that were the case, I’d be all for it.
stepay, again, I there are MANY trade-type programs at community colleges. Mechanics program, veterinary technician program, and a cartography program are just 3 examples of trade-oriented programs I’ve seen offered at local community colleges. Many lead directly to employment - the cartography program was created to meet the needs of a local oil and gas company, a major employer in that area. Community colleges are not “just” for transferring to a 4 year degree schools.
Well, now hang on here a minute. Those local programs in coordination with local employers are a reason to keep this stuff local not a reason for the feds to take over CC’s. And, the stated goal of this program is to produce more college graduates somehow so is there any reason to think vet tech training or auto repair class would be free? And, those are classes that come with a fee but it’s not full-time tuition. It’s a fee. And, often the local employer seeking trained workers helps fund it. So there goes that. Also even if this passed, which is unlikely at best they are not just going to open the doors to all community colleges at no charge. There will be paperwork and there will be requirements. Even if they don’t include much in the way of GPA we are probably not talking about hairdressing. And, he keeps saying free for those willing to work for it so what does that mean, exactly? Details matter.
For those students that don’t graduate (or earn a certificate), it’s not only a waste of money, but it’s a waste of that student’s time. Instead of going to a CC for two years (or more) they could have been working, earning income, and developing skills that will lead to improved future earnings. That sacrifice (in time and money) is worth it, but only if you earn the degree/certificate.
These programs (like The Tennessee Promise) are not targeted at students that wants to take a class or two at night.
@katliamom - Yes, but overall those programs aren’t very good at getting students successfully through. When you’re talking Community Colleges, you are already talking about (on average) the worst students. If you make it free, then you will hook some even worse students with an even less chance of getting through a program. Again, if Community College were generally not already an affordable option, then I might be all for this initiative (though the fail rate to me is still too high). Simply throwing money at education isn’t necessarily a good thing. I question Obama’s knowledge here. I’ve taught at Community College, and I know the level of student that walks in there…a good portion of them have no business trying to learn in that kind of setting.
@austinmshauri - Society should not lure people to failure. Society should also not continue to make people believe they don’t have value if they don’t get a college or Community College level education.
Hmmm. Well, I do think money equals control, sorry. I don’t know how to get around that one, really.
I do agree that there is already plenty of funding and no need for CC to be a free for all deal. Actually, I think that is somewhat nutty, to be honest. And, beyond impossible.
fully funding or providing more money ander any kind of banner to the system that was supposed to educate and comletely failing in this goal? Interesting concept, especially when comparing the success of this type of systems abroad where funding per student is a fraction of what is funding per student in the USA. Based on this comparison, removing funding is more logical. There is no precedence whatsoever that higher funding is resulting in better k - 12 education. There is an evidence that supporting families and better teacher prividing at least marginally better education. I said marginally becasue unfortunatly NONE of the American k - 12 measure up to many average schools abroad including sahmefully so some countries in Africa (talking about funding???)
Hmm, you can’t really call our educational results “shameful” without acknowledging and understanding the social issues that drive them - blaming K-12 for these issues misses the point (but feeds the narrative that more money will fix everything, which the schools actually love.)
I’d agree that additional funding for schools will generally not make a meaningful difference, except in some that are resource-constrained. School performance is driven in large measure by social factors - (and I deliberately exclude economic factors - I think many think the economic factors are the drivers, when in fact the economics are the result of those same social factors. The schools have little hope of fixing the children of bad parents.
To the extent that K-12 systems might be truly under-funded, then obviously that should be addressed - but throwing money at it isn’t always the answer - I recall that in years past, D.C. spent more per-student than any other system, yet was far and away the worst-performing - so much money was wasted and stolen that despite all the money spent, many schools were badly under-resourced and in disrepair.
Beyond shoring up any under-resourced systems, the next priority in my mind is to provide more vocational training options.
Free CC is so far down the list of priorities, it’s just a waste of breath.
Take for example the University of Wyoming. In-state tuition is free. The retention rate is terrible. A lot of the students don’t know what they want to do and a 4-year school isn’t the right fit. Since it’s close to free (housing + expenses are small), the students have an easy come easy go attitude. They drop out.
If Obama wants to pay for this out of his own pocket, so be it. If not, tax payers should not have to pay for free CC of which probably 40% of students will be retained AT BEST.
"Hmm, you can’t really call our educational results “shameful” without acknowledging and understanding the social issues that drive them "
-Excuses will not work. You can sat sorry to your own kids. Honest discussion here is what is needed. And I will continue saying sound and clear, that k -12 is a shameful failure and nothing else. And the best schools have their hand tight up also because they ahve to follow the same plan or they will not be certified, the same shameful plan that I am ashamed to call education, it is a clear attempt to erase any type of critical thinking in a child’s brain by busy work of filling papers, no wonder many kids simply bored and focus on jobs, social events, sports, they want to see a real achievements, paper fillings do not measure up.
