<p>Texdad, I have to defend the senior partners at the Wall. St. law firm I worked at.....People outside of "the firm" always said, "those young associates do all the work and the partners hop on the train to the burbs, early!' and they were dead wrong.....Those partners were doing the same 80 hour weeks that the associates were doing......why do you think so many of them have had 2 and 3 wives by the time they're 40? Because they're ALWAYS working!</p>
<p>Heres hoping husband #2 is the last and that 80 hours will be my reality instead of 90!</p>
<p>Kirmum, I'll take your desire to one day do only probono work as you basically agreeing with me.</p>
<p>dke, I understand that is true at some firms. I recently had coffee with a patent lawyer I met at Starbucks who told me with pride that he had billed something like 350 hours in one month for a client in South America and had flown 30,000 miles in the same month on business. A relatively young guy. He also talked about his recent divorce. I didn't comment on the possible connection between these two events.</p>
<p>My cousin used to be married to a woman in SF. When I stayed with them on vacation, she put in about 12 hrs per day M-F. About 7:00 to 5:00 Saturday and left for work on Sunday from about 8:00 to 3:00. Nothing special. Just trying to impress the partners. She told me that the partners at her firm worked almost as hard.</p>
<p>One final note. Getting oneself heavily in debt makes it exremely difficult to follow your muse and do good legal work without the sometimes soul killing work at these big firms.</p>
<p>MOST PRESITGIOUS SCHOOL IN THE COUNTRY</p>
<p>I am currently attending the United States Military Academy at West Point. It is one of the best undergraduate engineering schools in the country and definately one of the most prestigious.</p>
<p>I understand the concern about prestige, but I think there is another issue going on for some of us parents who are on CC: we know that our kids are looking for a very specific program (the kids have found a passion they really want to pursue). For some of the kids on CC who are seeking programs in music, or theater, I've been told that some excellent schools only accept a handful of new students a year. For some others who may be seeking a specific technology area (artificial intelligence, or some genetic engineering sub-speciality for instance) it is entirely possible that the kids have made an intelligent choice about specific schools that they really want to attend.
Is this prestige-mongering? I don't think so. It strikes me as an attempt to fulfill a dream, but it sometimes gets expressed with the same fanatic desperation to be admitted to this school or that school that we read about for those who have parents pushing for the Ivy League.</p>
<p>Texdad, my desire to do probono work at this point in my life comes from my passion to work with and for underpriveleged kids. I do not in any way regret my corporate work nor do I consider it soul killing. I have on the whole enjoyed it tremendously, found it to challenge my intellect and be rewarding in every sense. After 21 years with one firm, I'm ready to do something else when I can afford to. We all have choices. Were I in danger of losing myself, I'd enroll the kids in public schools and State colleges and save my soul. I'm happy to do this for a bit longer so that they can have every opportunity. It's that simple.</p>
<p>Do I take it correctly that you feel parents should do altruistic work and insist their kids go to low cost schools?</p>
<p>Kirmum, I do think that parents should consider sending their kids to a less prestigious, lower cost, schools if it means that the parents can't do good work.</p>
<p>Of course, as you know, I don't equate Ivy/Private as excellent and lower cost state schools as poor. I think a lot of it is needless prestige pandering. </p>
<p>I think it is very important to give your kids the example of you as a parent doing valuable good work, even if it pays less. Call me old fashioned I guess.</p>
<p>Education/ college is not really as important as doing good work in your life afterwards. What is the point of this supposedly great education, if not. Do you disagree?</p>
<p>I think both are important. I also think being a good role modle is essential, and we all have different definitions of what that means. I'm proud that my kids see me working hard to make the sort of living that allows them the best in education and life experiences, and that they also see me do work for the greater good.</p>
<p>Hey Brendan, hope all is going well for you. Service academies get overlooked a lot when it comes to prestige. They are a fine representation of our country's young men and women. I love how successful students can maintain a hectic workload while staying in great physical condition, hold a some sort of leadership position in charge of dozens or more of your peers, meanwhile keeping your room and uniform ready for inspection and drilling, plus standing watches:/ No Ivy can compare to that.</p>
<p>kirmum, peace. We agree on the value of setting a good example. I also think we largely agree on what is the best type of legal work, if one can afford to do so. Our values are therefore relatively close. Sometimes holding down expenses, even with respect to education, can be helpful in achieving this goal IMHO. Certainly while you are doing probono there is no need to choose. </p>
<p>To me this is an important factor to consider when considering the prestige/ cost tradeoff in education to the point it actually exists.</p>
<p>kirmum - you have argued forcefully and well about the value of a Princeton or other elite education. On the whole I tend to agree with you though I have mostly taken the other side or at least take some of the claims with a grain of salt. If your ambition is to be a corporate lawyer or enter the professions an undergraduate degree from an elite university and the huge costs associated with it may be worth it. But what about the kid whose ambition in life is to be just like the teacher who inspired him or her back in Corn Crib Iowa or the barrio in LA? is it worth six figures to get a BA or BS from an elite college if that is what you want to do with your life? Even if your share is only the EFC as Princeton decides to calculate it?</p>
<p>BTW I wonder how a tort lawyer would feel if the defendents lawyer said the defendent would determine what the plaintifs losses were and compensate him accordingly?</p>
<p>Peace Texdad. I think it's important for kids to understand their full range of options. Mine are familiar with my firm and met many attornies that practice education law while I worked a case. They see their Dad who is an attorney/agent to stars and my siblings who are teachers and nurses and taxi drivers. Their stepfather to be is a surgeon who has been in India helping the victims this week yet runs a very successful sports medicine business. What I want my kids to know is that it is perfectly OK to be financially successful. The notion that wealth comes with lack of morals and integrity is something they know not to be true. To those who much is given.....is another important theme in our home.</p>
<p>My D is going to get out of undergrad with a fairly light debt load but almost certainly have a largish debt load if she goes to law school and her interests afterwards are not among the most lucrative. </p>
<p>My two cents to her would be to never fall into the 80 hour per week trap but that if she has to live modestly compared to her peers, do so. Older cars, less fashionable address, etc. As some of my clients are sick of hearing me say, there are always trade-offs, it's just helpful to realize them up front.</p>
<p>Patuxent, of loans are involved, everyone who knows they want to be a teacher or onvolved in a lesser paying career should run the numbers and make a realistic decision. Those from the LA barrio usually qualify for a lot of financial aid. The irony in CA is that middle class UC students tend to graduate with much more debt than their peers who go to top colleges which often cap loans.</p>
<p>Thedad, I appreciate that you feel wisdom dictates that at 80 hour work week is bad. However, my life experience tells me some people thrive in such environments and get great joy from their intense work. What if your daughter is one of them?</p>
<p>Sometimes it is well worth while to do the 80 hour a week stint. When it becomes a rat race, and harmful to health, happiness, disposition, all of the good things in life, it's time to start looking for an alternative path. But sometimes a short spurt of this kind of life can reap some great benefits. I know my son did a summer like that where he worked several jobs and took local college courses to make up for classes he failed or nearly failed, and light terms that threatened his 4 year graduation. Kids may have to do this who really want to go to a school that is too expensive. I have recommended to some kids to start a weekend job now, and work double, triple shifts over the summer. You can rack up $10K that way which is a nice hunk of change. My H made the transition from academia to business about 9 years ago, and that entailed some 80 hour weeks to get over the hump. If he did not do it, he would have likely failed. Having done it for about 4-5 years, he has effectively quadrupled his earnings, made a tidy sum, and is now working 40-50 hours a week. But if you are working those horrible hours and not getting anywhere, just spinning wheels, or treading water, an assessment of self and the job needs to be made. But nothing wrong with some "pulse" treatment to launch a career.</p>
<p>Kirmum, I'm not actually against making a good living and in some cases it certainy does not interfere with doing good work. I raised the issue because your earlier posts seem to argue to me for that as almost an end per se. </p>
<p>As far as educational law goes, what are we talking about? Doing the paper work on bond issues?, collecting delinquent taxes?, defending suits based on the Education for All Handicapped Children Act?( though I hear it may have been eliminated recently), defending slip and fall and negligence by school districts? What are big firms doing, aside from probono work to help the average kid in education law?</p>
<p>These education lawyers you are talking about, did they work for big corporate firms. Did they all go to the Ivies?</p>
<p>Kirmum, I know my D well enough that working 80 hrs./week would sacrifice too many other things she considers important. 60 hrs/week, yes. 80, no. It will be interesting to see how she juggles a high-powered career with mommy track but that's a bridge that many women have to negotiate in their own way and I have no doubt she'll solve it to her own satisfaction. She's known since she was 3 or 4 that she wants to be a mother and that's that.</p>
<p>Jamimom, good point about the distinction between relatively short term and way of life. Two years is one thing, 10 another, and what's in between is arguable.</p>
<p>Kirmum, are you in an office 80 hours a week? How do you manage with children?</p>
<p>TheDad, I had the "mommy track" conversation with a female executive in my company this week. She turned down a large, high-profile promotion last week due to her children - three under the age of 11. She, like me, works around their drop-off at school, pick-up from school , sports, everything else schedule. Thus, there are lots of late hours (after they go to bed) and some weekends. I believe the key to juggling when women have high-impact careers and children is to find a flexible assignment and work it! I really don't see how 80 hrs is possible, though...not without a live-in nanny/au pair and lots of guilt.</p>
<p>I would love to know how other women do it.</p>