<p>Barnard students DO NOT take most of their classes at Barnard. They take over 7,000 classes at Columbia per semester, averaging out at just over 3 classes per semester at Columbia. Therefore, the average student is taking all but 1 or 2 of their classes at Columbia.</p>
<p>
[quote]
They take over 7,000 classes at Columbia per semester, averaging out at just over 3 classes per semester at Columbia.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Where did you get these figures? And do you perhaps have similar stats for how many CC students take classes at Barnard? </p>
<p>From my d's perspective at lesat, what you cited is way, way off-target.</p>
<p>Yes Calmom, I know what it says. I wrote most of the conciliatory parts of the article. </p>
<p>However, it's also true that Barnard likes to have it both ways. The administration is extremely territorial. Shapiro chewed out an orientation coordinator for failing to bill a flyer "Barnard-Columbia." She got very offended that Barnard was supposed to be included under "Columbia." Of course no one's complained that Barnard doesn't have an official presence on facebook.</p>
<p>And yes Monydad, that is a very accurate analysis of the situation with the financial analogy. However, I disagree with your (and many other persons') assumption of the primacy of USNews as a causal influence. It probably has less to do with manipulation and more to do with CC's jealous territoriality within the University. The College spent 130 years under siege from the University's central administration which never hesitated to make decisions without considering the effects on, or needs of the College. The result is a College that's billed as the undergrad school of the university, when it's anything but. Columbia College students find out about these incongruities after they arrive at CU and are taken aback. They want the ambiguities clarified, but the University, which tends to see things in terms of revenue streams, doesn't seem to think it's a problem. Columbia has at least begun reporting joint CC/SEAS statistics under the new admissions dean.</p>
<p>Based on his post history, I'd take anything s snack says with a small mountain of salt... but it appears he's somewhat right this time.</p>
<p>It's per year, not per semester:
[quote]
Typically, Barnard students take an average of 7,000 courses a year at Columbia, while Columbia students take an average of 6,600 courses a year at Barnard.
[/quote]
<a href="http://www.barnard.edu/about/columbia.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.barnard.edu/about/columbia.html</a> (Barnard College, Office of Public Affairs, April 2001)</p>
<p>7,000 divided by 2400 Barnard students is: 2.9 course per student per year. At a minimum, Barnard students would take 4 courses a semester -- to carry a load of 15 points, you would need 5 3-point courses. So, let's assume 9 courses on average per year -- it would leave Barnard students taking 1/3 of their classes at Columbia, 2/3 at Barnard.</p>
<p>Those numbers are somewhat dated I think, at least the ratio. According to a Barnard history professor, the credit flow (if not the gross number of courses) now flows towards Barnard. Columbia pays Barnard a fee to make up the imbalance.</p>
<p>Also calmom, there is a difference. Because Barnard is independent, it's entire administration is devoted to just it's undergraduate students, unlike at Columbia where that is definitely not the case. As a result, Barnard students tend to have a better college "experience", in the sense that their school cares a lot about them and expresses that caring. I think us Columbia kids who realize this and can look past "barnard, ***?" can admit we're probably just a bit jealous :)</p>
<p>That's the beauty of Barnard. The school's relationship with Columbia allows it's students access to instruction in the Liberal Arts under the Faculty of Arts and Sciences at Columbia in addition to the Barnard Faculty, while giving them the attention that only a small independent school could.</p>
<p>That reminds me, Monydad, one point about the underlying thinking with your analogy. The limited control that Columbia exercises over Barnard's Faculty was part and parcel of the agreement to open cross-registration between the two schools in 1973. Columbia faculty wanted a say in just who would be teaching their (male) undergrads in Barnard courses.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Of course no one's complained that Barnard doesn't have an official presence on facebook.
[/quote]
Actually, I've seen a lot of Barnard students griping about that, but it makes some sense with the way Facebook networks are set up, with students being restricted to their own schools except those who are in their friend's network. That is, if the idea of Facebook is that you can look up others at your school, it would be very frustrating to students on either side of the street if there was an arbitrary wall put between them. </p>
<p>Of course Facebook could probably solve that problem with a little bit of code that could create a bigger Columbia/Barnard network, but still allow students to opt for their own school.... but my guess is that once on campus, not much student life actually takes place on line.</p>
<p>Actually, setting it up is very easy: Claremont McKenna's facebook is set up so that all 5 schools are on the same network, and are listed together under the "Claremont" network, but the network's "name" on each student's profile matched the domain in the students email. For example the profile of my friend at Scripps listed it as her network, but on my profile she was counted in the "Claremont" network, along with my friends at Pomona.</p>
<p>I did generalize a bit. I have friends who are fiercely proud of Barnard, and other's who will just list "Columbia University" on their resume.</p>
<p>Cross-enrollment figures through 2004-2005 are here:
<a href="http://www.barnard.edu/opir/students/pdf_file/crss_reg.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.barnard.edu/opir/students/pdf_file/crss_reg.pdf</a></p>
<p>This is reflected in points, not classes -- but that actually makes it easier to analyze. The chart shows 2 years out of 10 where the point balance favored Barnard over Columbia (i.e., where Columbia would have had to pay Barnard) -- but then it swung back again ... so it looks to me over time that it can go +/- up to about 3500 points either way. </p>
<p>The individual student load balance is more consistent -- as a whole, Barnard students take about 70% of their courses (+/1 2%) from Barnard / vs. 30% from Columbia. </p>
<p>Within classes at Barnard (assuming I am interpreting the "Total Barnard Points Taught" category correctly), about 70% of the students (+/- 3%) are from Barnard vs. about 30% from Columbia.</p>
<p>Thanks Calmom. I took the class with that professor in 04-05, when it probably appeared like a steady trend of credit flow towards barnard over a 9 year period before it swung back in 04-05.</p>
<p>Thanks for clearing all that up, Calmom!</p>
<p>Just to clear up issues in the Claremont (NOT Claremont McKennas - that's one of the five schools in the consortium) facebook network. All the students are grouped (and shown) to be in the Claremont network. When I look at my networks (at the top), they say Claremont and "hometown." The only place it identifies which college I am affliated with is under the education information section, where I have the option of choosing my school out of the five. However, there's no differentiation to the average person browsing through profiles - I could go to Scripps, Pomona, Pitzer, Claremont McKenna, or Harvey Mudd and it would still say Claremont as my network regardless. Even when looking at other students' profiles within my network they still say Claremont - you have to scroll down to the education section (or look at their email address) to see where they go to school. The Columbia/Barnard setup is really no different than Claremont's, from what I understand.</p>
<p>And since Barnard and Columbia students can take the same classes, join the same clubs, and play on the same sports teams, there isn't much left for Facebook to use to distinguish between the schools.</p>
<p>it's really convenient, so that you can see all the kids you take classes with and such without having to friend everyone</p>
<p>I just had my daughter's diploma framed for her and I am looking at it as I type. At the top, it says "Universitatis Columbiae."</p>
<p>Here is the translation which accompanies the diploma:
"The Trustees of Columbia University in the City of New York
To all sundry to whom this document shall come, greetings. Know ye that inasmuch as she has duly and lawfully completed all the exercises pertaining to the degree of Bachelor of Arts, we have advanced (name) to that degree and have granted and given her all the rights, privileges, and honors which are customarily bestowed in such instances. In more complete testimony whereof we have directed that this diploma be validated by the signatures of the President of this University and the President of Barnard College and also by our common seal."</p>
<p>The bottom line? Affiliation with two prestigious institutions.</p>
<p>I am not sure where you got your stats but my daughter took only two classes at Columbia (A grades in both) because she preferred Barnard classes. The faculty were more engaged and the discussions were at a higher level. Most of her friends preferred Barnard classes as well.</p>
<p>s_snack was mistaken about the stats -- I posted a link to actual stats covering a 10 year period (post #28) -- there is generally a 70%/30% ratio, give or take a few percentage points over the years:</p>
<p>Barnard students take roughly 70% of their classes at Barnard.</p>
<p>Classes at Barnard, on average, are composed of 70% Barnard students.</p>
<p>Obviously these are averages and individual situations may vary.</p>
<p>Calmom, I got accepted in Barnard next year for Russian.
I was just wondering, does your daughter like the Russian program there?
Is there any major issue with it?
Thanks</p>
<p>I haven't heard much one way or the other about Russian from my daughter - I know she got an A in the course last semester. I think that the reason she doesn't talk to me about it is simply that there's not much to say, simply because its a language class - she didn't tell me what was going on in her ballet class last semester, either... but then she got an A+. I figure that if I am not hearing complaints and my daughter is pulling A's, then she probably likes the class.</p>
<p>I can tell you how it's structured:</p>
<p>All beginning & intermediate Russian language classes (1st & 2nd year) are taught by TA's, with class size restricted to 15; the courses are given at Columbia. Most sections meet 5 days a week (M-F); it is 5 point course and there is also a grammar lecture on Thursday afternoons. There are generally about 3 or 4 sections to choose from and there is no problem getting a spot. </p>
<p>I think 3rd year Russian meets less often and is taught by a prof - but I'm not really sure. </p>
<p>Have you studied Russian before?</p>
<p>Yes, I took it for three years in middle school and then a full year of college courses.</p>
<p>Thanks again :)</p>
<p>Was the college course recent? When you get to Barnard, during O-week you can take a placement exam in the Russian department. My d. had 4 years of high school Russian plus she lived in Russia for 4 months, and her high school Russian class piloted the AP program and AP test last year, and my d. scored a 4. With the exam at Columbia, she placed into first year Russian II (the spring semester level). The problem was, they didn't offer that last fall - she would either have to take first year Russian I or start with second year Russian. </p>
<p>Her adviser did not want her going without language instruction for a semester, and also felt that her grammar needed improvement, so recommended that she start with Russian I. My daughter was upset about that at first, but once she started going to class she was fine. The first month or so was really easy for her, but I think they also tailored the instruction somewhat to challenge her more, or else made her the equivalent of a class aide at first. Anyway, my sense is that things moved along rather quickly. </p>
<p>In any case, she now seems happy with the level. </p>
<p>I'm just mentioning this because my impression is that the Columbia/Barnard Russian classes are conducted at a fairly high level from the start -- I would have assumed that my d. would place right into 2nd year Russian ... but it didn't end up that way. </p>
<p>Even though my d. was disappointed at first, I realized right away that she would have an easy A in a 5 point class her first semester, giving her time to acclimate to college and focus on her other classes -- and she did have a high workload in her other 3 classes, so it really worked out very well for her.</p>