Prestige of "Seven Sisters"

Colleges and Universities A-Z Barnard College
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<p>For those of you in China/Korea/Japan/India/Singapore, can you please tell me how prestigious or well-known the “Seven Sisters” are?</p>

<p>In particular, how do the reputations of Wellesley/MHC/Smith compare?</p>

<p>Now don’t get me wrong, Barnard has all my respect, and I’m also aware that it’s one of the most popular women’s colleges in the US, maybe even more popular than Wellesley to some extent since it’s affiliated with Columbia plus the New York City factor, but is it true that it’s less well-known in these Asian countries? Thanks! :)</p>

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<p>Curious -- I am not sure from the way your post is worded if you are aware that Barnard IS one of the "seven sisters". The term comes from a time when most of the Ivies did not admit women, so young women would attend one of the "seven sister" colleges, and they were considered to be the most prestigious colleges young women in America could attend. Of course, things changed once all of the Ivies started admitting women.</p>

<p>Because Barnard is affiliated with Columbia, Barnard students earn a bachelor's degree from Columbia University --so if you are concerned down the line about prestige and name-recognition of the degree -- it wouldn't be an issue. Your diploma would say "Columbia University" and I assume that most Barnard women put both names on their resume's or job applications. </p>

<p>I think in the US, of the remaining seven sisters, Wellesley is probably considered the most prestigious, but I honestly don't know how well known the college is overseas.</p>

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<p>well I know that Christy Carlson Romano (an actress) attended Barnard, but in all her interviews she says that she went to Columbia University. So yes, women do put both names on their resumes.</p>

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<p>Barnard students do not earn agree from Columbia University. They get a Barnards degree which has the sigs of both the Barnard Director and the Columbia Director.</p>

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<p>You are mistaken, the degree is issued by Columbia University.</p>

<p>Here's a picture:
<a href="http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2221/diplomawf5.jpg%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2221/diplomawf5.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>calmom is right...they explained that to us on the tour...We would be a degree candidate from Barnard College, but a graduate of Columbia University, I believe is the phrasing.</p>

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<p>You are correct, audra. The wording on the diploma is in latin but says essentiallly that.</p>

<p>I think some get confused when talking about "Columbia" because there is Columbia College (from which you, as a Barnard student, would of course NOT receive a diploma) and Columbia University (comprising CC, SEAS, FU, JTS, Barnard and various grad schools) from which you would (hopefully....lol) receive a diploma as a Barnard graduate.</p>

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<p>^Barnard College is NOT part of Columbia University. It is AFFILIATED with Columbia University, just like, for example, the Jewish Theological Seminary is. Columbia University's Undergrad schools consist only of the College, Engineering, and GS.</p>

<p>It may say Columbia at the top, but the degree specifically notes that it a degree from Barnard College which is affiliated with Columbia....here's what a current Barnard student has to say:</p>

<p>
[quote]

But in response to other people, Barnard is not a 'school' of CU. It's an affiliated college, with separate administrations, curricula, president, whatever. They just have a lot of financial agreements, which leads to the cross-registration of courses and the sharing of the athletic department and other extracurriculars.</p>

<p>Basically, if you want to get really technical, although the Barnard diploma says "columbia university" and is signed by the president of Columbia, it's also signed by the Barnard president. Other CU "schools" don't have a separate president like Barnard does.</p>

<p>I've found a lot of Columbians (mostly women, hmm) are really sore about the apparent "back entrance" into the university. As far as I know, most Barnard girls apply to Barnard because of its differences from the university, rather than because it increases their chances of having access to Columbia classes and resources. That's just a bonus, in the end.

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>Barnard occupies a unique niche in American higher education. Added to its status as a highly selective liberal arts college for women, it is affiliated with Columbia, the Ivy League university known for contributions in fields from journalism to medicine. Barnard is located just across Broadway from Columbia's main campus and is one of four undergraduate schools within the Columbia University system (the others are Columbia College, the Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science, and the School of General Studies). In an arrangement unique in American higher education, Barnard has its own campus, faculty, administration, trustees, operating budget and endowment, while students earn the degree of the University.</p>

<p>FYI: It is an affiliated college and also "one of four undergraduate schools within the Columbia University system."</p>

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<p>And I agree with the "current Barnard student" you quote. The differences for Barnard students as compared to Columbia College, SEAS, etc, are all much appreciated by the Barnard students.</p>

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<p>"Undergraduate education at Columbia is offered through Columbia College, the Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science, and the School of General Studies. Undergraduate programs are offered by two affiliated institutions, Barnard College and Jewish Theological Seminary."</p>

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<p>"FYI: It is an affiliated college and also "one of four undergraduate schools within the Columbia University system."</p>

<p>Sorry churchmusicmom, your reasoning is specious. By your thinking, List College at JTS is automatically another undergraduate school at Columbia.</p>

<p>Some facts:</p>

<p>1) Barnard College is an independent school. It has a relationship wth Columbia University governed by an intercorporate agreement since 1900 which is periodically renewed or renegotiated. </p>

<p>2) As part of the agreement between the two schools, and in a nod to the uniquely close relationship and long shared history, the Trustees of Columbia University (that body that is empowered to grant degrees) confers degrees on graduates of Barnard College. The students are still EDUCATED at Barnard College, answer to the Barnard administration, (which is wholly independent of CU and fiercely territorial). It all really comes down to nit-picky technical interpretations.</p>

<p>3) This might help: <a href="http://wikicu.com/Columbia-Barnard_relationship%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://wikicu.com/Columbia-Barnard_relationship&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I was not attempting to "reason" anything at all. I was simply quoting the Barnard website in my previous post. I do agree that it comes down to "nit-picky technical interpretations" and I don't personally care how you view the relationship or which terms you choose to use.</p>

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<p>The Barnard administration has been known to fudge with terms when it suits them. They even have focus groups every few years to try to tweak the language. Last year they even admitted that the description they use is very ambiguous and problematic.</p>

<p>I just want it to be clear that the answer to "Is Barnard part of Columbia?" is "Well, it's kinda complicated..."</p>

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<p>It looks to me like Barnard is set up as an -off-balance sheet asset of Columbia, the same way that many companies have off-balance sheet assets.</p>

<p>In the corporate world, these nominally independent companies have separate boards, management team, etc, yet they are ultimately subordinated to, and controlled by, the parent in some fashion. The nature of the controlling mechanism is such that the parent doesn't have to put the assets "on the books" for accounting purposes, according to the rules; "implausible deniability", if you will. Often, these off-balance-sheet assets are footnoted on the the parent's balance sheet.</p>

<p>In these situations, the "separateness" is in fact a sham created by the parent, and all who look closely recognize that the affiliate is in truth an asset of the parent for any real common-sense purpose.</p>

<p>In the current situation, the instrument of ultimate control/ subordination is the affiliation agreement. IMO, Columbia has acknowledged its ultimate control over this asset by its ongoing involvement in faculty tenure decisions and its granting of degrees. IMO It is wishful thinking to say that this is done as some sort of favor.</p>

<p>The referenced wikucu article contains a number of statements slanted towards, and undoubtedly by, digruntled Columbia students who are unhappy with the affiliation structure that their university has adopted.</p>

<p>IMO they should direct their "disgruntlement" towards the university who cooked up and entered into this deal, and leave the Barnard students, who are merely using what the deal entitles them to use, alone. </p>

<p>They are persecuted enough by the fact that, though they really are Columbia University students in every practical sense, the university for its own purposes has put them off-balance sheet.</p>

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<p>Is the wording so important? I'm reading that Barnard and Columbia students take classes at both campuses, that often the place where one learns is more schedule-driven than anything else, that students participate in clubs and activities together. So clearly there's some crossover and some aspects of the education that both schools share.</p>

<p>I think churchmusicmom's statement that Barnard occupies a unique niche in American education is exactly right. Barnard provides girls the ability to obtain a top notch LAC education while also taking advantage of the resources provided by a top notch university. I'm sure there are some girls who think they are using Barnard as an entry into Columbia. I'm also sure that most are seeking the LAC experience that Barnard offers and Columbia does not. Call it an affiliated institution, a related institution, one of four undergraduate institutions within the university...whatever you'd like.</p>

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<p>The wording is important to those disgruntled Columbia students who are unhappy with the fact that barnard students get the same stuff they do.</p>

<p>The irony is that, IMO, they are trying to give actual credence to what is actually an artifice created by their university to puff up the stats they can report to US News. They have fallen for, or have conveniently convinced themselves to fall for, their university's own structuring artifice. In the end, I don't believe their university really believes their argument itself.</p>

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<p>Lest you think Columbia wouldn't do that:
Actually Columbia is widely accused of actively managing/ manipulating the way they report data to US News. Over the years they have been accused of selectively reporting data of Columbia College alone, vs. both the College + SEAS, whichever way will make them look better at the time. And they NEVER report GS stats, consolidated or otherwise. Presumably they finagled a way to get around the GS issue, but the same method wouldn't work for Barnard. So they found another way. Like the good I-Banker training ground they are.</p>

<p>That's how it looks to me.</p>

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<p>Confucian, the wikicu.com article you quoted contains the following statement:
[quote]
Barnard is for all intents and purposes part of the same college life as the Columbia schools, despite not being a Columbia school. In day-to-day affairs the lines between the schools, endlessly argued over in theory, are in fact almost non-existent,<a href="I%20hesitate%20to%20quote%20a%20wiki,%20because%20anyone%20can%20come%20in%20and%20change%20it...%20but%20there%20it%20is">/quote</a>. </p>

<p>Actually, I want to clarify my original posting on this thread. Curious Kid asked specifically about "how prestigious" the colleges were in China/Korea/Japan/India/Singapore. My point is that a graduate of Barnard will have a Columbia diploma to show Asian employers, whatever the undergraduate experience is. It is highly unlikely that the Asian employer is going to be familiar with the structure of the Barnard/Columbia relationship, but probably more likely that they will have heard of "Columbia University" than Mount Holyoke. </p>

<p>My daughter sent me her resume earlier this year for my comments -- this is what she is using to apply for summer internships. At the top, she had written, "Barnard College of Columbia University". That looks fine to me; it's how it appears on the letterhead of every piece of correspondence we get from Barnard. I think she would be nuts to leave off the "of Columbia University" part when it comes to job-hunting.</p>

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<p>I'd like to add something. My daughter's first semester, she took half her classes at Columbia, half at Barnard. She got A's at Columbia, B's at Barnard. She continues to be at the Barnard campus 5 days a week, because she studies Russian and that's where the classes are held -- but for spring semester all of her other classes are at Barnard. I think that Barnard women often end up taking most course work at Barnard because of a perception that the classes are better at Barnard. (Smaller, faculty more accessible, etc.) </p>

<p>When I visited my d. at Barnard, I was amazed at how friendly and open the faculty were -- I met and talked to two of my daughter's profs on a Friday (when classes are not usually held). I had not expected to do that and not planned to -- and in both instances the profs initiated conversation with me, as I was simply tagging along with my daughter. In one case I had attended a review session in a class with about 50 students, purposely sitting in the very back of the room-- and the prof made a point of approaching me at the end of class and telling me that he enjoyed seeing parents visit. </p>

<p>Now I can't say that this would not have happened at Columbia --all I am saying is that I was pleasantly surprised at Barnard. But I do know that it is hard to find that level of intimacy in larger university settings, so it may very well be that Barnard students feel a little more at ease with their own profs.</p>

<p>So I think that there is a Barnard difference, but I would analogize it to the difference in Morningside Heights to the rest of Manhattan. It's a somewhat different ambiance -- but it is neither isolated nor fully separate.</p>