I don’t disagree with you prepped, but it is hard to want unbiased when we all have our biases.
As somebody who knows that they probably already have a bias against them in the admissions process and are held up to a higher standard, I understand why this is the case. A somewhat capable student with a stable family life, a decent school around the corner, parents who understand the value of education and push their children to achieve well, will in all likelihood do better than a very capable student who was stymied by external factors, such as a bad neighborhood, low achieving peers, few academic and extracurricular opportunities, and so on. In many cases these capable students are URMs as a result of systemic problems in the US. So colleges picking students with lower stats who have had a more challenging time growing up and still thrived makes complete sense, yet since this often correlates with URMs, these stats can easily be used to make claims of discrimination. At least this is the conclusion I’ve come to after going through the admissions cycle this year.
^^^Agreed. So let’s eliminate the second question on the Common App, which is “Are you Hispanic or Black?” Hispanic or Black is not relevant. It’s have you had challenges/road blocks to your education that you thought were insurmountable? I don’t want to take away diversity from the discussion, or SES or lack of supports, I just want to remove discrimination based on race.
Doesn’t ORM mean over represented majority, for the purposes of college admissions? My mistake then. At any rate, yes, the vast majority of students at these colleges are white and Asian.
When I first began looking at all this over twoyears ago, I remember being shocked and upset at the bias against females at many top colleges. Now, I get it, and I understand why it is the way it is. If it was all really and truly fair, top colleges would literally put everyone in a hat and choose. Life isn’t fair, so deal with it, and hope your child gets into a college they will be happy at. If they do their homework, they should end up at a good school for them.
BTW, surprised this thread is not closed. There is supposed to be only one thread for this type of discussion, and it is pinned here. Wish there was a pinned thread for waitlist discussions too.
No, ORM means over represented “minority,” not majority. Problem is they are not over-represented. The "quotas"currently in place have not kept up with the population census.
My 2 kids are done with the college process, but I want to be an advocate for current applicants who deserve a fighting chance.
There are SO MANY more pressing issues facing minorities than transparency, or lack of at Princeton. If you were trying to make sure minorities get a fair shake in the public schools, I’d applaud. If you were trying to make sure minorities get a fair shake in access to housing, health care and even decent grocery stores, I’d applaud. Yet another thread about one (or 7) elite schools in one little part of a very large country to me sounds like an unhealthy and not terribly productive obsession.
What helped me understand and accept the selection process for college admissions was this: The colleges are not so much selecting individual students as they are creating a class. It’s more akin to casting a play than it is to rewarding students for top stats.
Then start your fight on behalf of women, because there is nothing at all that protects them from being unfairly discriminated against. Sorry, but I do not have one iota of pity for anyone trying to get into elite schools. And that inlcudes my own kid. Why? Because no one needs to apply to Princeton. Anyone can go to State U. Read the other thread on this page about the poor “average” kid and his desperate plea for help. He ONLY got into Vanderbilt and Georgetown. What a tragedy.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/07/30/achieving-perfect-gender-balance-on-campus-isnt-that-important-ending-private-colleges-affirmative-action-for-men-is/?utm_term=.24282683181f
My life’s work has to do with closing health care disparities for all, but this quota system for ORMs is a pet peeve of mine. And until its eliminated, it is a productive obsession.
^^@lindagaf Completely agree about gender bias against women that needs to be addressed in college admissions, but that’s a different thread.
I actually think the best way to do it is just assign a number to each applicant and give no indication of any race in their applications. I have no idea if this is how UCs do it. Of course, for some applications, admission officers will still be able to guess at the races by their activities and essays that reference their races. Private institutions or colleges are not fair in their admission process, I agree. I thought MIT doesn’t take the race of an applicants into account, but that also doesn’t seem to be the case from my impression.
For that matter, I think NBA GMs, coaches, scouts and refs (a lot of them are whites) is also somewhat biased against white and non-black or non-superstar players
Also, I think it’s also unfair that so many students at a magnet schools such as Thomas Jefferson High School in Fairfax, VA are such great students academically but only a small percentage of them can get into Princeton because I am sure Princeton doesn’t want to take too many from one school.
Yes, there is unfairness in this process, so you have to recognize it and use that to your advantage, i.e., apply to certain schools which might give URM treatment to Asians.
I wonder if there is any disadvantage if you refuse to indicate your race and change your last name? For example, change the last name “Lee” to “Leigh”? lol
I just looked up some stats. I spent about three seconds doing it, so I’m not interested in getting into a long argument. But according to Wikipedia, asians make up 5.6% of the US population, and they make up 20% of the Princeton student population. So I don’t see rampant bias or “underrepresentation.”
It will not be eliminated. There are too many qualified students, and private schools can build their class based on many criteria. You don’t have to get over it, but that’s just the way it is.
@donnaleighg so, you got old data, hence this article (url above). Here is an excerpt:
<<america’s asian="" population="" has="" exploded="" in="" recent="" decades,="" and="" attendance="" at="" highly="" selective="" schools="" with="" colorblind="" admissions,="" such="" the="" california="" institute="" of="" technology="" university="" california,="" berkeley,="" reflects="" this="" demographic="" trend.="" harvard,="" however,="" percentage="" undergrads="" remained="" remarkably="" consistent="" for="" an="" institution="" that="" claims="" race="" is="" not="" a="" determining="" factor="" who="" admitted.="" mr.="" blum="" suspects="" princeton="" engages="" similar="" shenanigans,="" but="" school="" been="" pressuring="" education="" department="" to="" deny="" him="" information="" he="" requested="" more="" than="" year="" ago.="">></america’s>
@katliamom That’s why I am advocating here for it to change. “Challenge the status quo” is the mantra of many a successful business person. It may be the way it is now, but not the way it has to be.
@donnaleighg - If the college admissions practice, as you seem to assume, is based on U.S. Census racial representation, then you’re right in observing that there is no rampant bias. But, of course, the college admissions practice isn’t based on racial representation.
If admissions were based solely on stats, 1600/4.0 applicants (or let’s say 3.9+/1550+) would fill the vast majority of the top-20 U and LAC spots, and there would be very few low-SES kids, especially low-SES black and Hispanic kids. But universities are looking for things other than just stats superstars, like athletes (they make money for the school; well some do, at some schools), kids of major donors, first-gen kids (helping a family boost itself), and kids of differing race and SES – differing experiences. They don’t want a homogeneous campus; they want variety. Why? I can think of a couple of reasons off the bat:
- Learning to deal with people who are different from you is an important part of a college (or any) education.
- Variety is intrinsically interesting
I go back and forth on this: yes, it sucks that a kid with a 1200 gets in over a kid with a 1600; but when you consider that the kid with the 1200 might provide something few others can provide to that school among all the other applicants, and that is what the school wants, it’s a bit more understandable/palatable, IMO.
I would rather that SES status were used instead of race, but for now we still view race as a differentiator (unfortunately).
Holistic admissions is a sham designed to hide the obvious, that colleges are discriminating on the basis of race. The Princeton data would reveal this sham, as it will show that the URMs Princeton is admitting is largely based on raw scores, i.e., the black students with the highest scores/GPA are getting in, by and large. The ordinary black student at a private suburban school with a 32 ACT is much more likely to get in to Princeton than a black student with a 30 ACT and an interesting story to tell. Moreover, the data will likely show that there are zero low scoring, non-hook Asian and white applicants who get admitted over a black student who had higher scores, even though many of these Asian and white applicants have interesting stories to tell. Holistic admissions would be great, if colleges actually did them. But I don’t think they have time to sift through 30,000 life stories.
We can all complain about the unfairness. I can complain that my daughter is at a disadvantage being a white girl from NYC. She has a better shot if she were a URM from Iowa. It’s also unfair that athletes have an advantage. I think it’s lousy that schools are so stats focused. I could go on and on. If someone is so desperate to go to a school like Princeton then they better come up with unique ways to make themselves desirable, whatever that may be. Break out of the pack and do something to get their attention. If not, then look elsewhere.
The data is from the 2010 census. “Shenanigans” is one word. Creating a class is another that also applies. As many have said, the colleges factor in many attributes. And non-numerical attributes (not talking about race – talking about essays, recommendations, the sorts of ECs, etc. etc.) can by definition not be measured numerically or directly compared.