<p>quirkily,
It's not my policy, afaik colleges consider economic conditions and obstacles that you had to overcome. </p>
<p>Correct me if I'm wrong, a student who grows up in a ghetto and scores a 2400 on the SATs is looked upon more favorably than a student with similar stats from a wealthy neighborhood.</p>
<p>Of course it would be. Knowing that higher scores would naturally select for one group at a higher rate and not correcting for that bias would, in fact, be discriminatory.</p>
<p>mini:</p>
<p>I would to see what will be the measurement if they eliminate SAT and SAT II. How would you compare a 4.0 from one school versus a school where 4.0 are very rare? Go to many prep schools and you will find a lot of their highest grade in many classes are B+ (no A in many classes, many teachers mentioned it in his annual recommendation that this was the highest grade kid achieved) yet more than half of the class score 5 in APs. How do I know it because I see it with my kids classes where the kids was on among top student (many teachers mentioned it in his annual recommendation) but did not have 4.0 GPA. Yet more than 20% class went to Ivies alone.</p>
<p>"In other words, he's not necessarily against a holistic approach, he's just against factoring race into the equation."</p>
<p>"I don't see how that leads to a "boring class" unless if you guys are implying that a certain race consists of purely boring "math grinds" who should automatically get deducted points simply because of their race."</p>
<p>If all ethnic groups (and social classes) in this country had equal or comparable opportunities by age 18, then it is less likely that colleges would consider race to be a "factor." However, even then, ethnicity includes much more than just opportunity, majority/minority status, etc. It includes aspects of identity, sub-inculturation, etc. It includes world views, perspectives, life experiences. All of these play into an academic environment. One needs a variety of viewpoints to have more penetrating classroom conversations on issues that may cross & include cultural norms -- issues such as brought up in history, art history, sociology, political science, anthropology (extremely important!) & literature. Higher institutions have discovered that too much homogeneity in a student body limits the academic product of a class. It is more likely that broader heterogeneity will be found in a class comprised of several sub-cultures, several races, several countries, several geographical regions of the host country, & several socioeconomic backgrounds.</p>
<p>"How else would you propose to compare applicants academically?"</p>
<p>I don't propose anything. I think these private prestige colleges should be allowed to do what they please. And, frankly, I hardly think that, once they've made the cut of those who are "unqualified", they have to compare applicants academically at all. It's just not important, relative to making sure they have the requisite number of football and lacrosse players, take all the developmental admits, please the important legacies, mollify the important GCs, make sure the Egyptology department has enough students, take the sons and daughters of the movers and shakers - senators, congresspeople, ambassadors, and local officials, ensure there are enough (but not too many) oboe players, accept those who have already published novels, composed symphonies, or hold signficant patents, make sure the class is diverse enough to enhance the educational experience, and ensure there are enough full-freight customers to pay the bills. Oh, and make sure to reject enough top-flight candidates in order to enhance the institution's prestige (you get far more prestige in the hinterlands from whom you reject than from whom you accept.)</p>
<p>Again, I don't propose anything. I think I've described the system as it actually exists. (And I hardly think "reform" of prestige private college admissions is of any great or overriding social import one way or the other.)</p>
<p>Given all this, why would you WANT to compare applicants academically?</p>
<p>The courts should wash their hands of this. It's a waste of plaintiff and defendant's time and money. Sorry, Li.</p>
<p>No name only social security number on application to identify student.</p>
<p>Many colleges claim that there is no quota. We also know that many Asian kids do not fill the race card out because Asian kids think there is a quote for Asians. </p>
<p>So how about college do something which proves college point and prove asina kids wrong. Would college be willing to eliminate the race question and just ask the social security number and nothing else? Financial aid people can see the tax forms but not the ad coms as they are already claiming to be race blind. </p>
<p>Social security number has no way to tell what the race of an applicant. That way ad com can select kids based on what is available. Recommendation should be more or less same except minus race criterion.</p>
<p>And if the number comes same, college again proves that there is no quota and the admission is holistic as claimed by the college.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Many people here are misinterpreting what Jian Li is saying. You guys are too focused on the fact that he got a 2400, you're completely missing the point of his case!</p>
<p>Jian said that he did NOT believe that SATs should be the only factor in the admissions process. In fact he said that many other factors should be considered as well, just not race.</p>
<p>In other words, he's not necessarily against a holistic approach, he's just against factoring race into the equation.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, thank you for letting us know how we seemingly are misinterpreting what Jian Li is saying. I assume that such a statement can be supported by your intimate knowledge of the complaint. So, Saro, when did you gain access to the official documents? </p>
<p>Further, since you seem quite adept at interpreting the real meaning of what Jian Li has "said", could you please provide some insights into his past declarations to the press? Here's an example: </p>
<p>
[quote]
"I was actually hoping to be rejected by Princeton University so I could file a civil rights suit," Li said in a telephone interview yesterday. </p>
<p>His complaint seeks to suspend federal financial assistance to Princeton until the university "discontinues discrimination against Asian-Americans in all forms by eliminating race preferences, legacy preferences (which benefit children of alumni) and athlete preferences," according to The Wall Street Journal, which first reported the federal investigation Saturday. </p>
<p>At first, the DOE's Office for Civil Rights rejected his overture to make his case the basis for an investigation of Princeton, he said. </p>
<p>His request for an investigation was denied initially because of "insufficient" evidence pertaining to his specific situation. The Office for Civil Rights informed Li that his reliance on statistical information about SAT scores and the racial composition of students enrolled at Princeton wasn't adequate to justify an investigation. </p>
<p>What his complaint lacked at first was any information about specific non-Asian-American applicants admitted to Princeton's current freshman class with lower SAT scores than Li. </p>
<p>Li managed to get his hands on one such example -- information from a white, American-born applicant he knows whom Princeton admitted despite having "marginally" lower SAT scores than his -- and reluctantly passed that information to the Office for Civil Rights, a move that prompted the case to be opened for investigation in late October. </p>
<p>"I was reluctant to make this argument that I was somehow more qualified than this person but the department required me to give a concrete example," Li said. "Furthermore, I don't believe I was more qualified." </p>
<p>"This merely serves as kind of a tool, a means by which the case could start," he said. "It's not the basis of my actual opinion."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A bit of a tangent...
An interesting quote from a Prince article:
[quote]
First and foremost, Li never wanted to go here. He told a reporter from The Times of Trenton, "I was actually hoping to be rejected by Princeton University so I could file a civil rights suit."
[/quote]
<p>mini </p>
<p>Hahahahaaha like a real educated person, you do not answer just evade the quetion to suit you. </p>
<p>Elimniate SAT because it is income based. I still doubt it that it is income based - Income may be but it is more realed with reading differnt materails. One has to read in wide variety of ways, otherwise how would you talk on differnt subject.</p>
<p>With my low $$$$$ income my kid would have not been the one of the top scorer in the country in math + verbal while still in junior high. Prep school would not have picked up a poor asian (since many full paying asian exists) on full aid. Ivy leauge will not offer full aid beacuse SAT is more based on income which my kid prove it wrong again.</p>
<p>I think AA is necessary but the real benefit should be directed to a kid who is hailning from low income and come from inner cities. It should help even poor white kid hailing from rural america. I thik that it is ithe intent of holisictc admission and I agree with it.</p>
<p>I thought I answered your question clearly, forthrightly, cogently, and coherently, and in keeping with the actual practice of prestige private colleges. If you don't like their practices (which have little to do with comparing students academically), you should take it up with them. At any rate, since the SAT - according to its creators - is not designed to do so, you'll need another instrument.</p>
<p>"Would college be willing to eliminate the race question and just ask the social security number and nothing else? "</p>
<p>Stockmarket, WHY in the world would colleges do such a thing. They do NOT have to apologize for using the race of applicants in their holistic evaluation process. The process encompasses the evaluation of students among their true peers, and this is where a great number of elements are measured. While the racial factor is included, many other elements trump this single factor. That is why a student who attends Andover or Exeter is viewed differently from one who attends a rat-infested Los Angeles school ... despite being of the same race or even having the same parental income. That is why the SAT from the Exonian is not compared with a SAT score from a colonia student in El Paso, Texas. It's all ABOUT context. </p>
<p>What is unmistakable here is the continuing demands by citizens to abolish a system because it NO LONGER helps THEM. Where were the claims to drop the questions about race when it helped Asians massively? </p>
<p>Is this all about removing the ladder after climbing it?</p>
<p>Mini yes as a private entity, college do have right whatever they think. But then this is is question about when they recive billlions of dollars of public money then it is a different ball game. </p>
<p>How about your thoughts on "No name only social security number on application to identify student. - Would college class outcome will remnain same"</p>
<p>We are having a discussion and debate.</p>
<p>Xiggi my friend</p>
<p>"Is this all about removing the ladder after climbing it?"</p>
<p>No other hand college should say that they are private entity and they can do whatever suit them. Just say politely that yes they can not take 40-50% asian as it will be detrimental to society. I agree with them. But say that they have to reflect the whole scoiety and that they have quota on asian applicants as asian applicants neeed to focus more on other ECs rather than SATs and GPAs. GIve them an eaxmple of one or two fictious kids that they would reject even having steallar SAT and GPA beacuse they lack other things which contribute to the society. THisw ill start changing a perception in asian community. Maybe they will move from piano and viloin to politics and debate.</p>
<p>But admit that there is a quota for asians if they keep exisitng practices, why not admit if it is true. On other hand college can prove it wrong by putting this suggestion on paper.</p>
<p>Using social security numbers as ID would not completely eliminate the admissions board's ability to discern an applicants race. Many students are active in ethnic and cultural activities. If you're part of the Chinese student club at your high school, chances are you are Chinese. </p>
<p>It's still a flawed system.</p>
<p>What really bothers me is the lack of knowledge most people have about the admission process and how it prosecuted by various schools. On a personal level it was assumed DD gained entrance to the school down the street from Harvard because of AA for gender/race reasons. The reality is no one besides ourselves and the adcoms know for sure as to the details of her application. Did she get in in place of Jian Li? I don't know. Was he more qualified? I don't know and neither do you. There is far too much idle speculation as to "qualifications" by those with limited information.</p>
<p>I so agree that any selection system that ends up favoring one ethnicity over another is DE FACTO discriminatory! If Asians are being admitted in numbers disproportionate to their population, then they are being FAVORED!!</p>
<p>True "race-blind" admissions should have the effect of admitting an exact proportion of each race according to the national (or applicant pool) population. This would truly show that race is NOT a factor.</p>
<p>The fact that Asians may be better at beating the current system of admissions doesn't mean that they are more qualified to be successful students and contributing members of society. It is the admissions process that needs to be revamped to reflect admissions more representative of our society. I think this is what colleges are in fact trying to do.</p>
<p>Bay:</p>
<p>Nice idea that schhol should admit people based on popuation size. But think
about then distributing wealth according to population size. How about hiring people based on population and not merit. Promote people based on population and not based on meirt. Would you as a investor invest in that company. Would you go to a hospital when you are sick which hires based on population size and not based on merit. maybe you can - but would most of america will take your world and follow it through. Have you asked this to a upper east side liberal guy that give your wealth and forget it. It is nice to say but it is very hard to practice what you preach. So where we will stop - I hope you get the idea.</p>
<p>"How about your thoughts on "No name only social security number on application to identify student. - Would college class outcome will remnain same""</p>
<p>What would you do about the Asian language SAT subject test scores on applications? The number of non-native speakers taking these tests is quite low.</p>
<p>windcloudultra:</p>
<p>Well there are many chinese kids who do not practice it. And at least application gets to be more sanitanized as race is not even there. </p>
<p>To be honest I myself do not know the answer. But as a future leader, you and your colleauge has to think before implementing any policy. Afterall, as a parent we all want you to be thinkers and impartial and trying to do what is right. Ameica is built on these conecpts and that is what it makes better place than anywhere else in the world.</p>
<p>Even a poor person has a chance and less barrier to succeed as compared to any country in the world. This is a nice thing to know as we will grow old and hope our future genrations keep rewarding the merit of a persons ddeds than his race or color. THis was martin luther king's dream and it is so true.</p>