Princeton or Brown

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>Wow Eugenie, you seriously have a lot of hatred for Brown. You don't see me bashing Princeton on the Brown board, where this same topic was posted.
I'm impressed with your disgusting byerly-esque nature..... A pompous arrogant individual like yourself would fail miserably at brown. You are obviously incapable of seeing the beauty in a truly liberal education. One where the student creates their education by taking whichever classes they desire. And in reference to your belief that there are students who take all their classes p/f, ask any faculty member in University Hall, and they will tell you that such has never happened. Perhaps a lazy student like yourself would opt to do so (don't forget you said the temptation would be unbearable) but most students use the wonderful opportunity to take challenging classes outside of their comfort level. Its quite rare for someone to take more than 2 p/f classes a year, if that.</p>

<p>Your conjecture that PLME students might take all their classes p/f and simply "waltz right through the door," is absolutely ridiculous. In fact, due to the rigorous nature of the program, (which you failed to mention is extremely difficult to be accepted into - 5.3% acceptance in 2006) most PLME students are incredibly hard working. Just to get into PLME you have to have been an unbelievable student in highschool - chances are such a person is not going to become a lazy slacker overnight. Furthermore, although guaranteed admission into Brown's med program, many PLME students opt to apply to other medical schools, so they wind up taking the MCATs anyway. </p>

<p>Your argument that 1/6 the graduating student body is neither employed nor in a graduate program six months after graduation ignores the fact that 8% of students seek other endeavors upon graduation....this includes Fulbright Scholarships, internships, volunteer work, the Peace Corps, AmeriCorps Service, etc....those surely seem like worthy time commitments to me.</p>

<p>Send me the acceptance letter when your dog gets into Law school you arrogant b*astard.</p>

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<p>If your school wasn't overflowing with eurotrash rejects from other ivy league schools, was able to fund its endowment (with the likes of John D. Rockefeller Jr., Ted Turner, and Sidney Frank I would think you guys could put together a few dollars), and actually required students to take classes in THEIR MAJOR AREA for ABCDF graded credit (i mean seriously, taking your major area classes p/f, this is supposed to be a serious college?) I wouldn't hate on it so much.</p>

<p>You're right, my dog probably could not get into a law school, but I bet a well trained chimp could. There are law schools you can attend over the internet for crying out loud.... Like I said, that law school admissions statistic you cite is meaningless, anyone who can read/write english and has an IQ above 80 can get into A LAW SCHOOL (not necessarily HLS or CLS or something decent).</p>

<p>Yes, I suppose a good deal of those 16%-20% do volunteer in some sort of non-profit or other unpaid work. It's called biding your time when you're rejected from grad school or unable to find real work and you don't want a big gap in your resume. I mean seriously, how do they support themselves during this volunteer work? Living off mum and dad?</p>

<p>From Brown Alumni Magazine:
"Ironically, this bad economy could benefit public service. With fewer lucrative offers coming their way, students seem more willing to pursue noncorporate options. Last fall’s hotU Inc. survey found that 32 percent of students surveyed said they were more likely this year to consider a career in government, politics, or international relations than they were last year. Statistics from Teach for America and the Peace Corps, two reliable barometers for student interest in public-service careers, already show unprecedented increases. At Teach for America, applications have increased threefold since last year, and the total of 14,000 is the most ever in the organization’s history. Applications from Brown students increased 50 percent this year, according to Crystal Brakke of Teach for America. The New England office of the Peace Corps has received about 20 percent more applications overall than at the same point last year, and officials there project that the number of Brown students applying to the Peace Corps is likely to double by this December. </p>

<p>TAKE AMITA KULKARNI, for example. when she was laid off by Cap Gemini, she had no idea that one year later she would find herself in a refugee camp along the Afghan-Pakistani border interviewing women about their future role in a reconstructed Afghanistan. Nor did she have any idea she’d be giving presentations at major American universities upon her return. But in fact as a staffer at the Women Waging Peace Project (part of the Kennedy School of Government’s Women and Public Policy Program at Harvard), Kulkarni has ended up much closer to where she began. During her time as an international- relations concentrator at Brown, Kulkarni served on the editorial staff of the Brown Journal of World Affairs, and during her junior year she studied abroad at the School of African and Oriental Studies at the University of London. Nevertheless, when the inevitable senior-year job search rolled around, Kulkarni, like so many of her peers, had turned to the corporate recruiters. "</p>

<p>Puhleeze don't give me this BS about students working in Americorps or whatever because of their altruism. If they had a decent job waiting they would have taken it.</p>

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<p>Eugenie, - your ill-informed, crude bashing of Brown does more to discredit Princeton and Princeton students than Byerly's years of passive-agressive vitriol. I'm embarassed for my school.</p>

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<p>Call it crude, call it bashing, but please do not call it ill-informed unless you have some evidence to back up your statements. I will admit I could have used a bit more tact but I stand by every word in those posts.</p>

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<p>Byerley is a worthy adversary. It is a shame that he isn't defending Brown. Maybe he'll have some comments, I'm interested in seeing his opinion on the matter.</p>

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<p>I'd love to meet your family Eugenie. I'm sure they're a lovely bunch. They'd have to be to raise such a charming gentleman as a son.</p>

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<p>Just because you are too mercenary or selfish to recognize the benefits of volunteeris doesn't mean that everyone is. Brown is known to attract more liberal, free-spirited students than other Ivies; it is unsurprising that a higher number of them would prefer a year long volunteer or travel opportunity to immediately returning to the stressful world of school or work. </p>

<p>Slackers at any school can choose to coast through college instead of getting a real education. Brown's open curriculum and P/F option makes this easier. However, only an idiot wouldn't realize that employers are going to want to see more than a string of "P"s on a transcript. Brown can afford to offer such an option precisely because they admit students who, by and large, won't abuse it.</p>

<p>Your point about med school acceptance rates is specious. PLME students arae probably among the best and most focused at Brown. Clearly, if you choose to ignore the top students in determining what percentage of students were accepted to med school, the number is going to drop significantly. Even if Brown med school were closed, most of the PLME students would be accepted elsewhere.</p>

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<p>FYI the statistic about admission to law school refers to admission to one of a student's top 3 choices....I'm relatively sure most students wouldn't choose an internet diploma program as a top choice.</p>

<p>And your belief that students only join volunteer programs after being rejected from grad school is one of the most revolting comments I have ever heard.</p>

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<p>That's odd, ICargirl ... I've always thought the "passive-agressive vitriol" shtick was exclusively yours!</p>

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<p>Eugenie98, you read the Brown Alumni Magazine as a Princeton undergraduate?</p>

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<p>Holy crap its like someone blew up Chernobyl all over again. The fallout of these nuclear comments is burning me oh so much. </p>

<p>How about we just cordon off this discussion and never enter it again.</p>

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<p>I am a Brown alum interviewer and a Princeton parent. Both schools have a primary focus on undergrads and have happy students. Princeton undeniably has a far more glittering faculty and more resources for students in terms of financial aid, travel, study abroad, internships, etc. Many Princeton students seem to hit the ground running in terms of thinking ahead toward the kinds of internships, etc., they will want to get in order to reach their goals; Brown students are more likely to be enjoying the journey with less focus during their undergrad years on the destination. Brown students who seek jobs in finance do very well, but fewer of them seem to do this overall than do Princeton students; both schools produce quite a few entrepreneurs. Princeton has more of a social "scene" in the Street, whereas Brown students tend, I am told, to party more privately. Brown is known for offering academic flexibility, while Princeton has distribution requirements, but Princeton has a lot more opportunities for creating your own path than people give it credit for, not to mention the massive thesis funding available so that you can write on just about anything, anywhere. </p>

<p>I know lots of very happy students at both schools and very successful grads from both. Princeton is known for its alumni network but Brown is now really pushing in that area and Brunonians are very supportive of one another. I would say what sets the two campuses apart are their very disparate endowments; a more uniformly leftist student body at Brown and a more varied one at Princeton that includes the full spectrum of views; and an enjoyment of traditions (both lovely and raucous ones lol) at Princeton with more of a focus on being low-key at Brown.</p>

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<p>Alright alright I was being a bit of an ass before. I'll try to be more civil.</p>

<p>Regarding the law school acceptance statistics posted on the Brown site, they still hold little weight, in general a student is going to have as his or her top three choices three schools within his LSAT score band, e.g. if I score a 130/180 on the LSAT I'm not going to list Columbia Law or NYU Law since I'd be in maybe the 3rd percentile of the applicant pool for those schools. Since the LSAT is basically a logic test and since Brown students do pretty well on the SAT, they probably DO get into top law schools at a high rate. </p>

<p>So then.....why not list the median LSAT score, and/or post the acceptance rates for the top 10 law schools that students apply to, as Yale and Princeton do? </p>

<p>The same question for medical schools, Yale, Princeton, Berkeley, etc... offer detailed statistics of their undergraduate classes' acceptance rates and MCAT scores, whereas Brown offers few or no detailed statistics. Why not list the details rather than select a few possibly meaningless segments for publication?</p>

<p>What's even more unusual is the fact that Brown seems to take ages to publish its postundergraduate employment survey. The latest one is from 2003 and I cannot find any prior year surveys. The response rate is also abysmal, at 47%, which means that, due to self-selection, it is somewhat difficult to use with accuracy. </p>

<p>Ivyleaf, I do not actively read the Brown Alumni Mag, but I was so .... impressed with catsrus9's statement about the high percentage of recent Brown graduates who are committed to saving the world that I wanted to find out more about their work, and that article was one of the first links which popped up in google. </p>

<p>I still haven't received an answer as to how the recently graduated Brown students survive while doing their pro-bono work. Even if they can get deferrals on their loans, the Brown altruists still need to eat, buy clothing, pay rent, gas, utilities, right? Does that money fall from the heavens?</p>

<p>My question about what possible argument can be made for allowing a student to take their major area classes p/f still has not been answered, other universities generally do not allow it, since you are specializing in a concentration you are expected to take those classes for ABCDF credit.</p>

<p>Lastly, do you not find it unusual that Brown has such a huge parent donation rate in terms of $$$ value versus student alumni donation rate? It outranks every other school in terms of parental donation. Now, if you're mum or dad is paying $180,000 for you to attend Brown, and they're middle class, or even upper middle class I highly doubt that they are going to reach into their pocket and donate another $45,000 for the good feeling their empty bank account gives them at the end of the year. Most parents would have enough trouble taking $45,000 per year out of the family income. Think about what sort of quid pro quo that implies for student admission (think long and hard about for whom this type of quid pro quo admission occurs)</p>

<p>Since both of you, catrus9 and ICARgirl, are so well-informed, I was hoping you could help answer the above.</p>

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<p>Nice post, aparent5! I think that sums up the major differences quite nicely!</p>

<p>As you point out, students and alumni of both institutions tend to be pretty happy.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Lastly, do you not find it unusual that Brown has such a huge parent donation rate in terms of $$$ value versus student alumni donation rate? It outranks every other school in terms of parental donation. Now, if you're mum or dad is paying $180,000 for you to attend Brown, and they're middle class, or even upper middle class I highly doubt that they are going to reach into their pocket and donate another $45,000 for the good feeling their empty bank account gives them at the end of the year. Most parents would have enough trouble taking $45,000 per year out of the family income. Think about what sort of quid pro quo that implies for student admission (think long and hard about for whom this type of quid pro quo admission occurs)

[/quote]

LOL, that's so true... Brown is notorious for kids from "old money"
Some members of princeton "terrece" clubs are like brown kids - euro hyppie stylish with "old money" mum and dad :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>those brown and terrace kids are happy singing...</p>

<p>Puff the magic dragon live by the sea.....
peter paul & mary :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>Go to Princeton! Then you can say "I went to Princeton" and the room quiets. :D</p>

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<p>or Moonlight skindipping in jacuzzi, singing
"smoke on the water"
deep purple :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>So true so true. I guess another difference between Brown and Princeton might be that we only have one kind of roach at princeton, and it's the kind you smoke....</p>

<p>Princeton has plenty of old money as well, but graduates enough poor kids who become new money that new money donations >> old money donations.</p>

<p>Brown seems to be able to only get old money donations (the kids of the old money are probably too busy saving the world through Americorps or whatnot while living off their parents)</p>

<p>Most Princeton europeans/latin americans are WCers (World College students) and so they're largely on financial aid. We do have a few rich euros/latins though.</p>