<h1>39:</h1>
<p>arabrab,
Hmmm…a few years ago, my niece was engaged to a guy at the Naval Academy. It was only when he went on a training assignment in the submarine service that it was discovered that he is color-blind. He could not continue with submarines as a result. The engagement didn’t last so I never heard the outcome, but I believe he left the Academy.</p>
<p>Shawbridge…when comparing smart kids, with less time restraints, I would expect the ld kids to improve more on the SAT than other smart kids. However, I don’t believe that other smart kids wouldn’t improve if the test isn’t timed. My last test was timed…and I can tell you without a doubt I would have done better if the test wasn’t timed. I’m not ld. I don’t know the numbers, but maybe a ld kid can improve 500 points with more time and a non ld kid can improve 50 to 100. That is still an improvement for the non ld kid. That 50 to 100 point difference could be large enough, even if a ld kid improves 5 to 10 times more. Time adds a pressure.</p>
<p>Maybe…the way the SAT is structured shows that it is an ill defining test of capabilities. Maybe…there should be other tests that aren’t timed…for everybody. Then people can show off their different abilities.</p>
<p>The SAT is very weak on measuring creativity.</p>
<p>For example…the SAT doesn’t ask questions like, “how many different ways can you use a brick?”</p>
<p>^^That’s interesting arabrab. I’m not opposed to a a strong process and evaluation whether by decree or by law. This would not in theory be a barrier to people who need the protection and gives guidance to institutions.</p>
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<p>Well, many true LD’ers will be willing to take advantage of accommodations because in order merely to keep up with grade-level requirements, they virtually must do so. As with the rest of the population, there is tremendous variation in IQ and in potential among the LD set. Momofthreeboys’ comment seems to be particularly true, though, among the especially bright subset of LD-ers. (It’s something I have noticed myself, an educator whose work involves as much as 50% with LD kids, and who is a parent myself of an LD-er. Anecdotal, but observable.)</p>
<p>How much an LD-er will be willing to accept offered accommodation varies according to a combination of at least four things: (1) the particularly LD or LD’s plural, in that student, (2) the individual personality of the student (how competitive, independent, proud, etc.), (3) the “controlling” atmosphere of the educational environment: “labels,” performance expectations, size of class (grade), typical college aspirations, user-friendliness of available accommodations, other sacrifices which will result if accommodations are accepted – i.e., time, opportunities), (4) the IQ/talent (and broad awareness of that) of the individual LD student.</p>
<p>Thus, an extremely bright LD-er with ADD and auditory processing disorder, can and often does develop coping and compensating strategies – though very time-intensive - which allow him or her to be quite competitive and even highly achieving (competitive academic prizes, awards, gpa, courseload). Generally, these students have been unconsciously adapting to their LD from early childhood, certainly since the beginning of their academic lives. But a student with CAPD and NLD will be limited with efforts at self-management, no matter how bright that student, because of the nature of academics and what that requires us to do (listen and express, in an orderly, coherent, reorganized, and applied way, within conventional written expression, and in a group environment).</p>
<p>In response to Shawbridge’s opening post:</p>
<p>Five or six years ago, and not in reaction to any lawsuit or OCR complaint, Princeton admitted an LD-er to math or engineering. (I forget his LD, but it was significant although possibly singular.) It should be noted that this student was in the Highly Gifted category. He also had employed the services of a professional in the area of LD accommodations and LD admission to college: her services were perfectly ethical; I have enormous regard for her; she did not write his essays or do anything over-involved. Her primary function was to help with the legitimate documentation and explanations. Thus, in this case what P had was knowledge, at application time, of both the unusual giftedness of the applicant and the accommodations that would be required, were he admitted. Clearly P valued the student enough to calculate that trade-off. He was doing fine as a sophomore (the last I heard about him).</p>
<p>My older D was not required to furnish an exceptional rationale for her Study Abroad while at Prnceton, which occurred two years ago. It is true that the language of the country she chose is pertinent to her major, so perhaps no further justification would have been needed in her case. However, the other CC P parents whose S’s or D’s studied abroad have also not shared with me that vigorous defenses were expected in those cases, either.
I am a passionate advocate for the learning disabled. While I don’t limit that passion to the K-12 years, I will say that logistical, practical, and regulatory limitations on the K-12 student make implementation of ADA guidelines more urgent for them than for the college student, in my view. A family/student can’t fly anywhere, nor should it have to, to receive an appropriate compulsory education allowing the student development of reasonably full potential during K-12 years. Nor should the college applicant with LD be limited legally in where he/she can apply and be accommodated.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, variations in college environments – variations affecting the appropriateness of that setting for a particular LD student – are much greater than the variations in U.S. K-12 schools. Variations which are not related to accommodation *per se*, but which can and do also affect success of the LD student, include size of classes, chosen major at that U, distribution requirements and the qualifying courses within those, grading policies, user-friendliness of offered accommodations, and even the academic year (semesters with many courses, trimesters with fewer, etc.). That doesn’t even speak to the issue of peer environment. </p>
<p>Had my younger D expressed an interest in applying to P, I would have strongly discouraged it, even had she agreed to accept in high school her legitimately offered accommodations, which would have provided documentation for college applications. (She refused all of them. :rolleyes:) She’s doing beautifully at one of the most highly-rated public U’s in the nation, but if her LD manifestations were different, and were she not as bright and creative in her coping strategies as she is, I would have urged her in the direction of certain smaller privates which practically advertise themselves as LD-friendly. There is a limit to how LD-friendly (and thus how comprehensively, vs. technically, accommodating) a college can be, without altering its character for its primary student body. That’s all I’m saying.</p><p>^^I believe I totally agree with the above. I do wish I would have used a different words than “true” in the quote. I suspect that will haunt me for years. I should have used the word “well documented” or something else, I guess my mind was thinking about the posts regarding those that use the system to gain an advantage.</p>
<p>^And I think I understood that’s probably what you meant, momof3. 
I’m not one of those that makes a poster “never forget.” Hopefully others won’t, either. :)</p>
<p>epiphany, good to know that the study abroad attitude may have changed at Princeton.</p>
<p>dstark, the study reported a large and statistically significant increase for LD kids. I believe there was a small, positive but not statistically significant increase for non-LD kids, but nothing meaningful in magnitude. Surprising perhaps, but not significantly different from zero.</p>
<p>As you pointed out in your earlier post, to the extent that the standardized tests measure some underlying kind of intellectual ability, it is likely that an dyslexic kid’s score from any standardized test that involves lots of reading or writing underestimates his intellectual abilities relative to non-dyslexic kids getting the same score on that test. That is, even with full accommodations, if a dyslexic kid and a non-dyslexic kid get the same standardized test score, the dyslexic kid is likely to be higher on IQ or whatever underlying intellectual ability scale than the non-dyslexic kid. Alternatively, as I think you also suggested, I’d expect that if a dyslexic kid and non-dyslexic kid have the same IQ (or other measure of intelligence), the non-dyslexic kid would have a higher standardized test score.</p>
<p>Perhaps they should just offer everyone the extra time and resources, those who don’t need it won’t use it.</p>
<p>I’m taking a chance here by saying this. Please don’t judge my comments harshly. I absolutely know there are students with legitimate need for special accommodation and whole-heartedly agree they should have the opportunity…have a level playing field…to receive a quality education. I also know there are educational psychologists, for example, who will provide a preferred diagnosis ‘for a fee’. Some students will take such a diagnosis and run with it, taking advantage of accommodations, extended time, etc. We have all read of the regularlty with which ADD/ADHD is over-diagnosed, resulting in the over-prescribing of drugs.</p>
<p>Are there any checks and balances in place to prevent unscrupulous or erroneous diagnoses?</p>
<p>^ Once you’re in private practice, No. No one’s supervising you. However, just as with medical doctors, lawyers, and more, one can “get a reputation.” (And some do.)</p>
<p>But to acquire the expertise to provide a credible diagnosis, complete with report, you need a Ph.D. to satisfy collegeboard’s requirement for documentation for SAT accommodation, for example. There are examinations, etc., obviously, leading to that degree.</p>
<p>I don’t now about “regularity” and how “we” supposedly “all” know about that. I cannot tell you how many students I have seen over the last 4 years on my job where there is negligence and failure to provide a diagnosis, mostly because parents (esp. some Dads) misunderstand (ADD and ADHD especially) and believe it’s some kind of comment on his virility if his son has a clinical misfiriing inside the brain. (Please.) Therefore, they refuse to look into it. Really there’s an irrational fear of “labels,” as if labels are evil. Labels are a neutral tool: nothing more, nothing less. If you have any kind of a medical condition that will benefit, let alone require, treatment, you best have a label so that the medical community knows what the heck to do with you. </p>
<p>There are also lots of overprotective Moms out there who have NOT read the literature, and/or are operating with knowledge from the '70’s. There are more meds out there now, and far more scrutiny of drug interactions and side effects. If your brain cannot be trained to reorganize itself on its own, and spins out rather than gathers in, no amount of wishful thinking, “growing out of it” (well, eventually you may), herbs, or alternative treatments will work. Marginal, and I mean marginal, improvement will be made with very disciplined, regular 1:1 tutoring, but mostly only while the student is being tutored, not away from the tutor. </p>
<p>I have been asked about three times in the last couple of years to contribute to questionnaires for ADD diagnoses. In one of the cases my hunch was that the student was not, but naturally I answer honestly every time. I was right: the student was not. Those who work daily, academically, with the student are the best ones to answer those questionnaires, as they see the symptoms. I don’t know a single classroom teacher who has answered those dishonestly, or who would, for any ulterior motive. The most difficult to diagnose are usually the very young, as young children are physiologically so active, with age-appropriate short attention spans, which is one reason I usually discourage attempts at diagnoses for the very young. (It’s also very difficult to ascertain true LD in the young child, partly because they have so few skills with which to provide data to a professional.)</p>
<p>Also understand that there is confusion between ADD and ADHD, as well as the presentations of ADD (which are more varied).</p>
<p>I’ve heard and read of an ‘epidemic’ of ADD & ADHD diagnoses, although I have no evidence to validate the assertion. College kids pay handsome prices for illegally obtained Adderall and similar meds to help them study for exams, etc. One family member told me one of a friend who got a script from her physician dad because he thinks its a great drug to help her focus! Illegal and unscrupulous, of course, but can’t believe this is a totally isolated case. My guess is that it happens on most campuses. </p>
<p>In fairness, I’m sure there are cases that are missed for a variety of reasons. </p>
<p>Post #49 brings up a good point, though—even if a student is diagnosed in error (I’ll leave the skill and integrity of the diagnosing doc out of the equation.), Princeton–any school/college–has no recourse but to honor that diagnosis. Schools can’t insist on retesting. Or can they?</p>
<p>Agree with a previous post that it seems unfair to ‘spring’ an LD diagnosis on institutions after acceptance. The real shame is those who legitimately need accommodation may face doubt.</p>
<p>"Agree with a previous post that it seems unfair to ‘spring’ an LD diagnosis on institutions after acceptance. "</p>
<p>Would it be unfair to spring ones status as black or gay on an institution after admittance, and then expect to not be discriminated against there? :)</p>
<p>I think we have some different attitudes about ADA. Fundamentally, its about leveling the playing field. It is in that sense simple fairness. Now, it may involve costs of various kinds. To the extent that imposes an undue burden, that needs to be considered. Let Princeton go ahead and make that case.</p>
<p>No Brooklynborndad your analogy does not work or I’m reading what you are writing incorrectly. A Black or gay person does not need accomodations. Neither do the vast majority of ADD/ADHD kids that are functioning utilizing meds and have no other issues. None of those examples require accomodations or alterations to curriculum or testing. An LD kid might need a notetaker, might need a reader, might need additional time on an exam or a handful of other differences. You could be black, gay and ADD/ADHD and not need accomodations or you could be black/gay, ADd/ADHD and have an LD that requires accomodations. I do believe if you have an LD you better make sure before you land on campus that the school can meet the needs and if it means disclosing then so be it. Frankly, if the day comes when the colleges/unis want to do the testing I say “have at it”, my LD son has been tested 4x, and will have been tested 5x by the time he graduates from high school and if it’s 6x to please a college/uni it’s only a few days time and a small price to pay (or not pay) in the grand scheme of things. Frankly if my son finally tests out of needing certain accomodataions it was be a day of rejoicing not crying about the fact that he won’t have extra time.</p>
<p>momofthreeboys, I think the issue that makes this complex is whether it is OK for schools to discriminate in admissions against kids with disabilities. I believe that they would/do, though they would never say that they do. That provides a disincentive for disclosing and means that one has to do very thorough screening after acceptance. But, schools make that hard as well because some won’t tell you until you choose to enroll (or well after that) whether you will get accommodations.</p>
<p>The ADA does not prohibit discrimination against a person with disabilities if the disability would prevent the person from being able to do the job. That is, anti-discrimination laws would not require a transit company to hire a blind job applicant to drive a bus. </p>
<p>Where it comes in is a situation where the person can do the job (or, in a school setting, the work) - but needs accommodations. So a company can’t refuse to hire an applicant for a desk job who happens to be in a wheelchair but is not otherwise impaired, because a person in a wheelchair can sit at a desk and do the work as well as anyone else. So the company may be required to install a ramp to let the person have access to the desk, or rearrange the furniture so that the wheelchair will fit at the desk.</p>
<p>It becomes a complex question at the university level, especially with elite admissions, because Princeton cannot be compelled to lower its academic standards under the rubric of anti-discrimination laws. Providing a ramp to a student in a wheelchair is clearly not in any way impacting academic standards-- but its a lot fuzzier when a student wants changes in exam administration. So it becomes a fact-based, case-by-case determination.</p>
<p>In other words – had this case gone to trial – we don’t know the outcome. A court could have easily recognized the existence of the disability but ruled in Princeton’s favor, finding that Princeton’s stance was reasonable – or not. There is no law that says, for example, all students with learning disabilities get extended time on exams. Rather, extended time is just one of a variety of accommodations that might be deemed appropriate in some cases but not others.</p>
<p>I had the great pleasure of going to graduate school with a classmate who was almost totally blind. He could discern bright sunlight vs. complete dark, but that was about it. He needed quite a number of accommodations - taped textbooks, tape recorder, extended time, braille reader, cases done in braille, graphs and charts described to him orally, specialized calculator,…</p>
<p>It was a revelation to me. He was every bit as good at learning about business as anyone else in the school. He asked great questions, and always held up his part of group projects. In class you would just forget he was blind, as when he asked a teacher a question about an operations research problem and she turned and drew a graph on the board and said, “Now do you see it?” We laughed for a long time, but it really was a very powerful lesson. With the right accommodations, and a huge amount of extra time on his part, since listening to taped textbooks and journal articles is invariably slower than most of us could read them, he did just fine. And that, to me, is the very best thing about the A.D.A. rules.</p>
<p>I suspect that everyone in my section learned a lot about what people who were blind could do, and I hope that they, like I, took that with them as we went on into positions where we could hire. He didn’t get a free pass on anything – he got what he needed to make the program doable given his vision constraints. I know he had a hard time finding a first job, because employers were also dubious. But I’m sure they learned rather quickly just how valuable he could be.</p>
<p>Thanks, calmom, for a very clear explanation. The fact that the university might choose to discriminate does indeed create a disincentive for disclosure among kids who believe that they can perform in an elite setting despite their disabilities.</p>
<p>Without the understanding that today you are most apt to be identified as learning disabled if you are a high income student in a high income private school, or in a wealthy public school district, this conversation has lost its context. In my opinion, the LD accommodation has become another way to favor the rich and connected. Even more than the legacy preference. Maybe shy of the wealthy donor preference and the politicians’ kids. But I could be wrong on that.
I think we can all agree that the truly disabled suffer from this kind of litigation. Why would Princeton give the benefit of the doubt to another learning disabled student? Beats me.</p>
<p>From what I understand, part of the reason that Metcalfe Legget was initially denied accommodations was because her classification was out of date; I believe she had not been tested since she was twelve. In addition, some of the disorders listed were ones that are usually considered childhood development delays that don’t always carry over into adulthood. Furthermore, Princeton did offer her some limited accommodations: she was permitted to take tests in a private room and take a break for ten minutes each hour.</p>
<p>Once she was retested (at which point I believe she was classified as dyslexic), Princeton offered her 50% extra time, which she claimed was not enough. </p>
<p>I think the value of extra time is limited, but real. I’m not going to be able to figure out a complex calculus problem no matter how much time I get, and someone whose brain is tilted toward science/math won’t produce an award-winning essay if he lacks the insights to do so. I do think, however, that students can make modest but not insignificant gains when time pressure is reduced or removed - a mediocre student might be able to stay afloat (or stay on the athletic team). </p>
<p>Of course, if the student does have an LD that warrants extra time, all that the extension does is level the playing field. Timed exams are an artificial tool that have no application to a number of professions, many of which either rely on different skill sets altogether or would allow hard workers to compensate for any difficulties by putting in extra hours on their own time. </p>
<p>The problem lies in determining when and how much extra time is warranted, and how to root out the people who do try to game the system - I’m sure there must be some of them.</p>
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<p>Indeed. It seems that the cases which the poster coase was referring to may have been mislabeled as those needing extra time. (Or, alternatively, coase’s examinations are strictly essay, in which case the “polishing” time --editing one’s essay – would give someone with extra time an advantage over others.) I would question whether all LD’ers need extra time for essays, which is rather different from extra time for objective tests. What challenges those with ADD and those with ‘long-term memory’ disability are the aspects of retrieval and confusion, and thus multiple choice tests (such as the objective portions of the SAT) are usually the absolute worst kinds of tests for them. They require extra time because of all the review and sorting and re-sorting that needs to be done by such students. </p>
<p>Extended time for those for whom it is legitimately indicated is offered to give them “the best that they would do without that disability,” which I can assure all here (again for the legit LD group) is not often equal to what a non-LD student of the same cognitive caliber can produce in the normal testing environment. It’s just a drag being LD. I mean, gee, it was neat to have a temporary blue placard for close-in parking spaces for awhile, when I had my injury over a year ago, but did that “advantage” me while I was still on crutches or limping? It made it a little less painful, and took me less long than if I didn’t have the placard; that’s all.</p>
<p>I appreciate 1Cargirl’s insight, and those of many of you here, by the way. Some thoughtful and educated replies by a number of repliers.</p>