Princeton Study: Ending AA would only help Asians not Whites

Parents Forum
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<p>
[Quote]
According to Thomas Sowell, graduation rates are much lower for URMs because they are "mismatched", that their ability is slightly lower than what is needed. Had they gone to a slightly easier institution they would have been more successful. Also, a study of law schools showed that URMs admitted under AA tended to do worse in classes and thus had a lower BAR passing rate.

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<p>According to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education </p>

<p><a href="http://www.jbhe.com/features/45_student_grad_rates.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jbhe.com/features/45_student_grad_rates.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Graduation rates play an important role in measuring the success of affirmative action programs. Many opponents of affirmative action assert, often without even looking at the actual data, that black student graduation rates are damaged by race-sensitive admissions. It is critical to review the statistics to see if this is true. For this reason, in this report we emphasize the graduation rates of black students at the nation's highest-ranked colleges and universities. Almost always these are the institutions that have the strongest commitment to race-sensitive admissions.</p>

<p>Academically selective institutions are almost always strongly committed to affirmative action in admissions, yet at the same time they tend to deliver a high black student graduation rate. Obviously, this undercuts the assertion made by many conservatives that black students admitted to our most prestigious colleges and universities under race-conscious admissions programs are incapable of competing with their white peers and should instead seek admissions at less academically rigorous schools. </p>

<p>Nearly 19 out of every 20 black students who enter the highly competitive academic environment of Harvard, Princeton, Haverford, and Amherst go on to earn their diplomas. Other academically demanding colleges do very well, although not as well as these four. </p>

<p>Sixteen other highly competitive colleges and universities turn in black student graduation rates of 85 percent or more. They are Wellesley College, Williams College, Brown University, Davidson College, Colgate University, Duke University, Northwestern University, Swarthmore College, Wesleyan University, Yale University, Georgetown University, Stanford University, Washington University, Dartmouth College, Columbia University, and the University of Virginia</p>

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<p>You will not receive an edge because you engage in some obscure activity that happens to be in decline at highly selective universities unless that activity happens to also be on the wish list of a college. Every year, adcoms are pretty much given some idea of what the college wants in their community, and they work with those guidelines. And one of the things that is on the wishlist are URMs which is why they do are often in a category of their own. It has little to do with overcoming obstacles. Many URMS who are accepted to the top schools are from middle/upper middle class families. This "wishlist" item has gotten a tremedous amount of flak mainly because the very top schools are the ones where this becomes obvious. The reason has little to do with reparations for the past, underprivilige. The reason is because of many civil rights issues heavily involving URMs and affecting policy in this country today. In order for the colleges to effectively discuss these issues, these URMs should be represented. As TheDad once said (am not quite quoting exactly) that there is not that much relevance having a" bunch of white chicks discussing black problems". It also has to do with jumping the gun in getting URM population into the running at these colleges that have been historically white. Just as a male has a better chance, in fact once a much better chance of getting into schools that were historically female to get that ratio where the school wants to be. I know that some schools who were going coed that gave preference to females as well until they arrived at the approximate ratios they wanted. Once that threshhold was reached, the preferences disappeared. Same situation. </p>

<p>Colin Powell's son would get preference without URM status, I am sure just as the Bush and Kennedy scions would. That is a whole other catergory of admissions flags that does not seem to raise the rancor of people--that of development or celebrity status of the kid's parents. This clearly by definitition, over priviged group of people get quite a bit of leeway with many colleges, I assure you.They do because they can literally enrichen the colleges. It is a breath of fresh air that some other reason than money is used as a criterion to have a special category.</p>

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<p>Lets play battle of the citations!
"In reality, this is not what usually happens. Minority students are systematically mismatched with institutions. It starts at the top colleges and universities, whose visibility and prestige make it politically necessary that they have a significant "representation" of blacks among their students. The wealth of such institutions enables them to offer the large-scale financial aid that many black students need to attend any college.</p>

<p>The drive to get a good-looking "body count" of black students leads the top colleges and universities to go way beyond the pool of black students who meet their normal admission standards. For example, there are numerous universities, liberal arts colleges, and technical institutes whose students' combined S.A.T. scores average 1200 or above. Yet a recent study indicated that less than 600 black students in the entire country score this high annually. That would not be enough to supply the Ivy League alone with a good statistical "representation" of black students who meet their normal standards. </p>

<p>Under these conditions, many black students discover too late that the "opportunity" to go to a big-name school turns out to be a trap. It is not a question whether black students are "qualified" but whether they are mismatched. For example, the average black student at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has a higher S.A.T. score in math than 90 percent of all American students. These black students can hardly be considered "unqualified." But, although these students' scores are in the top 10 percent among Americans in general, their scores are in the bottom 10 percent among the extraordinary students at M.I.T. Despite much lofty talk about the "irrelevance" of test scores, mismatching of this magnitude does have its effects. More than one-fourth of the black students fail to graduate at M.I.T., and those who do have significantly lower grades than the other students.</p>

<p>This is a needless disaster among highly capable individuals. There are numerous engineering schools at which they could have succeeded, or even excelled. Many individuals with all the ingredients of success have been artificially turned into failures by being mismatched with M.I.T. This is not a situation peculiar to this institution. It is an all too common experience for minority students throughout American higher education. </p>

<p>Twenty years ago, I discovered the same phenomenon at Cornell University. With half the black students there on academic probation, despite being steered to easier courses, I became concerned as to what the reason could be and looked up their records. The average black student at Cornell at that time scored at the 75th percentile on the S.A.T. test-that is, was academically superior to three-quarters of all American students. These were not "unqualified" students. But the average white student with whom they were competing in the liberal arts college was at the 99th percentile. Blacks with the qualifications for success were artificially turned into failures by being mismatched with Cornell. </p>

<p>More recently, the same phenomenon has been reported at the University of California at Berkeley. Although black students at Berkeley have S.A.T. scores slightly above the national average, nearly three-quarters of them fail to graduate. This is a devastating loss of capable young people. Moreover, it is getting worse. Fewer blacks graduated from Berkeley in 1986 than in 1975, even though the total number of black students at Berkeley in 1986 was significantly larger. More are just not making it through."
<a href="http://www.leaderu.com/alumni/sowell-choosing/chpter07.html#black%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.leaderu.com/alumni/sowell-choosing/chpter07.html#black&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www1.law.ucla.edu/%7Esander/Documents/Sander%20FINAL.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www1.law.ucla.edu/~sander/Documents/Sander%20FINAL.pdf&lt;/a>
I didnt read that link, but I previously did read articles in the newspapers about this study.
There is a response that attempts to refute those findings, here: <a href="http://www1.law.ucla.edu/%7Esander/Documents/CCKLCritique.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www1.law.ucla.edu/~sander/Documents/CCKLCritique.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>It is hard to decide when studies conflict.
sybbie, the source of that study is likely biased, though the raw numbers are hard to dispute. Also, Sowell's observations may be outdated.</p>

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<p>"And no college will admit you based on your personality."</p>

<p>Not solely on personality, but personality can be the deciding factor for a borderline case...</p>

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<p>tanovev, historical in USA, URM refers to American Indians, African-American, and Hispanic for the some of the reasons Jamimom states above. It is not true, despite what anybody here says, some Asians in some subgroups are not consider URM, does not matter how rare this subgroup is (Sri lanka was mentioned), even if there is check mark to identify different ethnicity, it's only for statistics. However, overcome adversity is something colleges often ask and some subgroups of Asian have more of these types than other, but not strictly because you are this ethnic type and you're automatically URM. Because for every Asian ethnic group(even the Chinese, Korean, Indian), you can always find somebody in that group poorer than some people from Southeast Asia persay, because there will always be some better and some worse, it's life. Therefore to say just because you belong to one ethnic group of Asian, you are automatically non-URM and if you belong to another ethnic group of Asian you are automatically URM is pure fabrications.</p>

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<p>makes sense...after all, I have yet to meet a non-Asian who can tell the difference between Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Vietnamese people, so...</p>

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<p>Obviously your experience is universal.</p>

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<p>"I do not believe for an instant that URMS are taking spots from Asian kids"</p>

<p>Well, excuse me. a friend of mine is Vietmese and she did not gain acceptance to Duke even though her Extra-curriculars were more special (no Piano here )and her GPA and SAT's were higher... ALso, her family came here during the war, and through hard work brought themselves up from poverty to the middle class cuz they had to start al over again from sctrach.</p>

<p>THink about that while i say that a girl in a nearby high school got into DUke, Upenn, and Harvard with lower sats, lower rank, although her GPA was the same, and almost NO extrcurriculars besides Key club and being on the JV swim team for one year... and she is an upper income Jamacian immigrant...</p>

<p>Does AA need to be revised? yes.
WIll it ever happen?............no (people don't care enough nowadys...)</p>

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<p>"originaloog, how does AA benefit minorities if they tend to do worse in the colleges that admitted them under AA, precisely because they did not match the quality of the other students. "</p>

<p>Black students' highest graduation rates are at the most competitive colleges, where their graduation rates are within a couple of posts of white students'. In fact, at a couple of elite colleges, black students have higher graduation rates than do white students.</p>

<p>Some research actually indicates that where black students' graduation rates are low are colleges that don't give a lot of financial aid. It seems that many black students drop out because of financial reasons.</p>

<p>The most recent data I can find on-line about this is through The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, which said that in 2002, Amherst had the highest black student graduation rate in the country: 92%.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.jbhe.com/features/38_leading_colleges.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jbhe.com/features/38_leading_colleges.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>
[quote]
sybbie, the source of that study is likely biased, though the raw numbers are hard to dispute.

[/quote]
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<p>You can get the same information from a variety of sources including </p>

<p>NCAA</p>

<p><a href="http://www.ncaa.org/grad_rates/2004/d1/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ncaa.org/grad_rates/2004/d1/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The educational trust College Results online</p>

<p><a href="http://www.collegeresults.org/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeresults.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Maybe you will find thenm less bias</p>

<p>You already know that the Sowell Citation is over 7 years old, and the OP is regarding AA at the undergrad level not law school</p>

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<p>Incognita, your friend's space was probably taken by someone with similar stats and situation but a little bit better. THere are alot of kids with that profile that your friend has. She was not compared with your Jamaican friend at all.</p>

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<p>i can handpick dozens of URMs from top 10 school, and i assure you my essay/grade/EC/REC/SAT/everything > theirs. yes, URMS are taking asians' spots LIKE CRAZY!. BUT, i think it's good. Coz, Asian, like me, can still get into excellent colleges (top 25) if we are denied by the "best" ones (top 10). still, they are colleges, and we can still get good education.... :)</p>

<p>when finding a job, nobody cares if you are a URM, right? I mean, for ibanking, i'm hiring a person who takes care of millions of dollars, of course i'd go for the best QUALIFIED candidate.</p>

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<p>those stats arent that impressive. Out of 24 schools only 3 have a 90%+ graduation rate for blacks. 9 are in the 80s, 8 in the 70s, 3 in the 60s, 1 in the 50s. It seems that as you go down in quality in colleges, the divide between the average URM and other students widens.
<a href="http://www.jbhe.com/features/38_leading_colleges.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jbhe.com/features/38_leading_colleges.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Incognita, your friend's space was probably taken by someone with similar stats and situation but a little bit better. THere are alot of kids with that profile that your friend has. She was not compared with your Jamaican friend at all." It's funny how you are so naive to assume that college admissions counselors can and do select the best candidates. Say, At UCLA, you need to be considered an admit by both of the admissions counselors who see your app. So what if you get lucky, and get the most lenient admissions counselors, who accept you. Does that mean you are better than everyone rejected in some way? no, you just benefited from the ideosyncrasies of admissions counselors.</p>

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<p>Ashernm you may have set a world's record for claiming wildly inaccurate stats.</p>

<p>"Yet a recent study indicated that less than 600 black students in the entire country score this high [over 1200] annually." </p>

<p>Preposterous. </p>

<p>According to a recent study by the college board (the people who administer the SAT), a study of a SUBSET of SAT takers found over 1500 african american students who scored over 1300 (not 1200) on the SAT 1. <a href="http://www.ets.org/research/pic/minsat.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.ets.org/research/pic/minsat.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"More than one-fourth of the black students fail to graduate at M.I.T." </p>

<p>Absurd. </p>

<p>According to collegeresults.org (based on data filed by colleges with the federal government) the 6 year graduation rate for african american students at MIT is 91%. This is not only much higher than the less-than-75% rate you claim, but it is exactly 1% lower than the rate for MIT students overall.</p>

<p>"nearly three-quarters of them fail to graduate" referring to african american students at Berkeley. </p>

<p>Ridiculous.</p>

<p>Again, the real numbers are 74% graduation rate for african american students vs 85% for students overall. In other words, three-quarters graduate, not three-quarters fail to graduate.</p>

<p>Based on the most recent data, there are 15 (not 3) colleges with median SAT scores above 1200 and african american graduation rates over 90%.</p>

<p>This group includes Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Williams, Amherst, Brown, and MIT. Hardly evidence that the african american students at the top colleges are in over their heads.</p>

<p>It is hard to take you seriously when you make up figures that are both outrageously inaccurate, and easily checked. Next time, make up some numbers that at least are hard to verify. For example, what is the average hat size of african american vs white students at elite colleges, and how does this prove the black kids do not belong there?</p>

<p>By the way, in case you really don't know, Thomas Sowell is a long term sycophant of the racist right. He is well known for his habitual distortions and outright lies in support of racist policies and against racial equality. You might as well read tracts issued directly by the KKK.</p>

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<p>" precisely because they did not match the quality of the other students. According to Thomas Sowell, graduation rates are much lower for URMs because they are "mismatched", that their ability is slightly lower than what is needed"</p>

<p>Sowell did not both to correct for family income, nor compare families at the same schools with the same family income (or parental education). But then what would you expect from a second-rate economist?</p>

<p>""nearly three-quarters of them fail to graduate" referring to african american students at Berkeley. </p>

<p>Ridiculous.</p>

<p>Again, the real numbers are 74% graduation rate for african american students vs 85% for students overall. In other words, three-quarters graduate, not three-quarters fail to graduate."</p>

<p>In fact, the performance of AA students at Berkeley turned out to be so GOOD relative to what was predicted by entering SAT scores that it caused the UCal system to move to doing away with SATI requirements, precipitating the current change in the SATs.</p>

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<p>afan and mini, you guys were remarkable</p>

<p>"Next time, make up some numbers that at least are hard to verify. For example, what is the average hat size of african american vs white students at elite colleges, and how does this prove the black kids do not belong there?"</p>

<p>That was hilarious</p>

<p>ashernm, why dont you take your pitiful condescending self somewhere where you can rant about how blacks are always unqualified. Youre the type of person who would love to join the KKK, i bet youd be welcome there. You loser.</p>

<p>its funny how this dude brags about his 2330 SAT when he cant even post accurate information which goes to show people with high SAT's arent necessarily smart</p>

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<p>Democrats are such flip-floppers. On the one hand, equality for all! (meaning homosexuals.) On the other hand, **** the asians!</p>

<p>AA as it stands now is a mere band-aid solution for the socioeconomic damage caused to blacks by slavery, Native Americans by oppression, and Hispanics by...ummm...something. College admissions will not fix the problem. It is like trying to fix a steak after you overcook it, it just won't work. AA needs to be reformed by not placing preferences on race, but rather on economic demographics. This way, the people who REALLY need socioeconomic help will get it. A similar policy was followed in Texas after race-based AA was eliminated, and the URM population held steady in UT schools.</p>

<p>However the real way to fix the socioeconomic damage is genuine effort into inner-city and poor neighborhoods to provide an education which will help them get into top institutions without an artificial boost. The GRADE schools at the highest proportion of URM attendence are still the poorest, and that is the biggest problem here. This must be addressed. College admissions matter very little in the grand scheme of things. Granted, along with the educational system go the other facilities in poor neighborhoods, such as law enforcement, as well as an overall atmosphere of discouragement of academics and lack of hope.</p>

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<p>Not to further inflame this tired old arguement but....</p>

<p>How does the administration of the University of California system justify expending scarce public monies on students with a 74% chance of graduating when there is an ample supply of students with an 85% chance of graduating? And if you were in charge of say aircraft safety would you spend your money on the plane with a 74% chance of landing safely or the one with an 85% chance of landing safely? And which plane would you personally choose to take your next trip in?</p>

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<p>I am sorry if I quoted incomplete/inaccurate/outdated statistics. It was an irresponsible post. I read a positive book review of one of Sowell's works and considered his works somewhat valid.</p>

<p>If you are so immature to turn to personal attacks, then please refrain from posting, DiamondT. I have no problems with the other critical posts. Besides, the KKK would rather lynch than admit me. Maybe you can guess what group I belong to.
I dont believe I mentioned my SAT score except in reference to college admissions and/or the SAT forum, ie not in this thread. You just come off sounding bitter about your own SAT score. Can I not be happy about my own SAT score? Doesnt every person have the right to tell other's about their achievements? It's just that people are very sensitive to their SAT scores, and can become acrimonious about it.</p>

<p>That is a good analogy patuxent. I wholeheartedly agree. There are also some interesting points about AA on wikipedia.org. Dont have time to post further.</p>

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<p>Wow, what a GREAT POINT, patuxent...</p>