<p>lots of campuses have “donut holes” where non univ property is surrounded by univ property. I noticed that this week at RPI, looking at a public safety map.</p>
<p>“The report on campus social life produced by a 13- member panel of students, faculty and staff last year, said that the groups lead students to narrow, rather than expand their set of friendships.”</p>
<p>This part of the rationale is what gives me the shivers. I can almost see a case for the drinking issue, if there have been large numbers of serious drinking related problems from those specific sororities and fraternities. But disallowing groups because they don’t like the sorts of friendships people form? Like the kind that last for life, being part of a close group of friends that you enjoy, the networking and connections that come afterwards? Oh, how terrible. I’m sure next they will ban all clubs because you might make close friends with people you have something in common with.</p>
<p>It all sounds even more hypocritical with the prevalence of far more selective “eating clubs” at Princeton. Perhaps they didn’t like that the unwashed masses were too easily getting into the Greek system instead of just salivating about their chances of getting into that oh so elite eating club.</p>
<p>Faculty have not moved on. They stay forever. Many either were there in the day or wish they were. But it was just a joke–don’t take it so seriously.</p>
<p>“Faculty have not moved on. They stay forever. Many either were there in the day or wish they were. But it was just a joke–don’t take it so seriously.”</p>
<p>jokes are funny.</p>
<p>Looking back the Weather Underground was pretty funny in a feckless we are way too serious way. Obviously the point is you are free to from some nutty marginal political or other group but can’t have a group of friends who just like some common interests such as good single malts, football and blue-eyed soul bands.</p>
<p>"But disallowing groups because they don’t like the sorts of friendships people form? Like the kind that last for life, being part of a close group of friends that you enjoy, the networking and connections that come afterwards? Oh, how terrible. I’m sure next they will ban all clubs because you might make close friends with people you have something in common with.</p>
<p>It all sounds even more hypocritical with the prevalence of far more selective “eating clubs” at Princeton. Perhaps they didn’t like that the unwashed masses were too easily getting into the Greek system instead of just salivating about their chances of getting into that oh so elite eating club. "</p>
<p>First Princeton has NOT banned frats, they have banned rushing before sophomore year. The eating clubs already do not take members before sophomore year. The report was looking at the issue, it did not set policy.</p>
<p>Second, that said, a college club allows all student to join (thats my understanding) except for some like the newspaper that have specific requirements for ability to write articles, athletic teams where you need to try out, etc - not a social requirement. </p>
<p>And third, Princeton is NOT particularly keen about the eating clubs, as mentioned above. But as has been stated repeatedly, they are rather entrenched. </p>
<p>"Perhaps they didn’t like that the unwashed masses were too easily getting into the Greek system instead of just salivating about their chances of getting into that oh so elite eating club. "</p>
<p>Do you actually have a child at Princeton? Im not under the impression that its eating clubs or Greek for most kids there, but I may be wrong.</p>
<p>"Obviously the point is you are free to from some nutty marginal political or other group but can’t have a group of friends who just like some common interests such as good single malts, football and blue-eyed soul bands. "</p>
<p>Im pretty sure if the WU was limited to princeton students and was selective in who could join, they would be treated as a frat by Princeton.</p>
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<p>Just as it is with the recent declaration that came from Cornell, attacking the fraternities and sororities because of their “exclusiveness” and “lack of fostering diversity” is nothing else than a pathetic excuse. </p>
<p>The officials at every university in the country KNOW what are the problems that are created by those type of organizations. They simply lack the courage to plainly state … “we no longer want you here” and surely are afraid to rock the boat, especially when this boat is more a yacht than a kayak.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1200401-pledge-end-fraternity-hazing-president-cornell.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1200401-pledge-end-fraternity-hazing-president-cornell.html</a></p>
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<p>I can also “amost” see a case for action! Oh wait, a little slap on the wrist of criminals and a few position statements will do just fine. Only to be followed by lamentations when the next death comes to a campus next to you. Taking bets when this WILL happen?</p>
<p>It seems un-liberal to ban the Greeks. Don’t liberals usually approve of anyone’s lifestyle choices? Why single out the Greeks?</p>
<p>My understanding of P’s Greek system is that certain sororities/fraternities are “feeders” into certain Eating Clubs.</p>
<p>Also, it is Final Clubs (not finals clubs).</p>
<p>Eating clubs are rather large and tend to dominate upper level social activities. About 75% belong.</p>
<p><a href=“Don't interfere with frats, eating clubs | Princeton Alumni Weekly”>Don't interfere with frats, eating clubs | Princeton Alumni Weekly;
<p>Here’s a model for a club that might be a good frat alternative.</p>
<p>[Organizational</a> Information](<a href=“http://cfli.wisc.edu/search/orginfo.asp?RegHistoryID=15095]Organizational”>Search Results for “orginfo.asp” – Center for Leadership & Involvement – UW–Madison)</p>
<p>No I don’t have a child at Princeton, but I have a son who is very happy in his fraternity and has found a wonderful close group of friends, so I object to knocking the Greek system on a generic basis. I can also read what people at cc have written, and what people have told me. Certainly campuses can restrict what activites they choose, and many have. I just find such hypocrisy when the administration makes statements like, “We have found that they can contribute to a sense of social exclusivity and privilege and socioeconomic stratification among students," and, "Social and residential life at Princeton should center on its residential colleges and eating clubs, Tilghman said in a letter to students. The eating clubs, which provide private, off-campus dining facilities for students, have also been criticized for high prices and exclusivity. Tilghman herself has said the clubs select students too “homogeneously.” </p>
<p>Looking at it on a purely objective basis, it seems bizarre to make statements degrading the Greek system when you already have an entrenched system that is much more exclusive and stratified. Am I mistaken?</p>
<p>“I can also “almost” see a case for action!”</p>
<p>One of the more serious cases for action a frat at my son’s campus was disciplined for was spray painting a chicken blue. PETA got involved. Oh the humanity! They should have just deep fried it instead.</p>
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<p>Not at all. Not only is Tilghman a hypocrite for not also banning Eating Clubs, she must also ban the admissions criteria that creates P’s exclusive and elite place in the world of academia, college and USNWR/Forbes.</p>
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<p>Busdriver, what happens is that people who have a romanticized view of frats tend to defend the Greek system on a generic and wholesale basis. All for one and one for all seems to be the motto. There are organizations that have multiple deaths caused by the negligence and immaturity of the members they entrust as leaders. When there is a call for the outright ban of a chapter of an organization that has had multiple criminal problems, there is a barrage of opposition. Some even argue that a five years ban is either enough or too harsh! </p>
<p>At one point of time, we need to recognize that what “we” have done is not working without more drastic measures. This means that a few babies have to go the way of the bathwater. But this does not mean that an universal ban of fraternities will EVER take place in the country. That is simply unfathomable! </p>
<p>On the other hand, schools that have had the sound judgment to prohibit them decades ago should be applauded for taking steps that does not condone a slow introduction of Greek life on their campus. The only criticism is that those steps are always too little and too late, just as this “intervention” by Princeton indicates.</p>
<p>Drawing parallels between eating clubs and fraternities is simply silly! Focusing on the exclusivity and segregation detracts from the real problems that plague the fraternities.</p>
<p>xiggi,
Have there been deaths related to P’s Greek system, or “criminal problems” that exist only in the context of sororities and fraternities at P?</p>
<p>Bay, that question has no direct relevance here because Princeton does not have recognized fraternities. </p>
<p>Your question is also typical of all discussions about taking actions against the Greek System. It is always about moving the goal posts.</p>
<p>Would a death by hazing at Princeton be REQUIRED before making an action necessary?</p>
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<p>It is neither more exclusive nor more stratified. The sign-in clubs are by construction not selective. Furthermore, the socioeconomic stratification in the clubs is not more than the stratification in the frats on average. Perhaps in the bicker clubs stratification is similar, but most bicker clubs are at least loosely affiliated with frats, so the issues are conflated anyway.</p>
<p>Furthermore, the statement that frats are the same as eating clubs (or should be treated the same) is idiotic in the extreme. First, eating clubs are for upperclassmen only and, although it may come as a surprise, friendship groups are NOT generally formed with admission to a particular club in mind. The exception to this is the Greek system. Second, they are places to take meals and socialize because the dining system at Princeton revolves around the residential colleges, not all of which are four-year. Furthermore, the system could not even facilitate all the students even if the administration forced them all to get meal plans. Third, there is almost no high-risk drinking at the eating clubs; almost all-cases of alcohol poisoning come from people who have pre-gamed. In addition, the clubs tend to be responsible in escorting people out as necessary (I have seen it at Tiger Inn of all places).</p>
<p>Most importantly, frats simply have no place at Princeton. There is no reason for them to exist at all, because the eating clubs do everything they do currently, except with less risk to health and better otherwise.</p>
<p>"No I don’t have a child at Princeton, but I have a son who is very happy in his fraternity and has found a wonderful close group of friends, so I object to knocking the Greek system on a generic basis. "</p>
<p>I read it as a concern they have about about the impact of frats at PRINCETON. Which they have a perfect right to be concerned about. And necessarily they must, in their review make statements that could be applied to greek life in general. However princeton did NOT post it here. They made the statements for their own campus dialog, in support of their own policies. Its not their fault a larger discussion was created.</p>
<p>"Not at all. Not only is Tilghman a hypocrite for not also banning Eating Clubs, she must also ban the admissions criteria that creates P’s exclusive and elite place in the world of academia, college and USNWR/Forbes. "</p>
<p>Can you please point me to where Tilghman BANNED frats?</p>
<p>“It seems un-liberal to ban the Greeks. Don’t liberals usually approve of anyone’s lifestyle choices? Why single out the Greeks?”</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Not everyone in the Princeton Admin is a liberal, Im pretty sure. Why is a colleges decision about its own policy about “liberalism” This conflating of particular higher educational institutions with political movements, which i find on many CC threads, is really getting tiresome</p></li>
<li><p>Not all “liberals” are supporters of diverse lifestyles. Some just believe in certain economic policies. </p></li>
<li><p>A greek house is a form of social organization that has an impact on the rest of campus life. I dont really think of it as a “lifestyle” or even as a “culture” but I suppose some do.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Perhaps Princeton could nip this entire issue in the bud by adding a simple line to its application, or requiring an additional statement:</p>
<p>“Do you intend to seek to join a fraternity or sorority while studying at Princeton?”</p>
<p>A computer program could track all the “yesses” and send the automatic rejection letter. Would save on adcom resources and future headaches for the deans.</p>