<p>So if all the above is true, the eating clubs are “off campus” and the fraternities meet “on campus”. And that wouldn’t change under these rules.</p>
<p>I am not sure what you are trying to imply, but the eating clubs, although technically “off campus”, occupy a pocket/corridor that is basically in the middle of “campus”.</p>
<p>The eating clubs are the tan area in the middle of the green, just to the right of the road that runs (more-or-less) north-south through campus. </p>
<p>The fraternities/sororities hold most of their weekly events on campus. A lot of times meeting spaces on campus are just vacant, and you and your friends can just stroll in. Other times, frat/sorority officers also happen to be officers of other recognized student groups on campus, and reserve meeting spaces under the guise of these other organizations.</p>
<p>Fraternity/sorority formals are always held off campus, at ballrooms, country clubs, boats, whatever.</p>
<p>I think it’s good that half of the eating clubs at Princeton aren’t selective. But that’s really not much different from the Greek system at some colleges that require every applicant to get at least one bid. In both systems, there are a lot of people who fail to get into the selective organizations that they would like to join. My recollection is that something like 20% of Princeton students try, but fail, to get into a bicker club. I think that’s a lot.</p>
<p>Apparently, some of the social elite may feel a need to subdivide that group into even more elite subgroups. Vance Packard’s *The Status Seekers<a href=“published%201959,%20when%20HYP%20tended%20to%20have%20more%20emphasis%20on%20social%20eliteness%20than%20academic%20eliteness%20compared%20to%20today”>/i</a> describes how, in some social elite circles, being a graduate of Harvard was insufficient; one had to be in the “correct” Harvard student/alumni club(s) which themselves were exclusive within Harvard.</p>
<p>"I am not sure what you are trying to imply, but the eating clubs, although technically “off campus”, occupy a pocket/corridor that is basically in the middle of “campus”.</p>
<p>Oh, I know where they are (my d. is a P graduate student). The issue has to do with ownership and governance. Who controls what. (At many colleges and universities, frat houses are in the middle of campus geographically and, in a few cases, colleges subsidize membership.) They look like frats to me. They seem to be governed independently. Some of them have “rush” (bicker) membership. Those who don’t live in them take their meals there (?)</p>
<p>So I’m not implying anything. I’m asking what social need frats-on-top-of-“frats”-on-top-of-exclusive-institution serves for current students.</p>
<p>I must admit that I really don’t understand this. To me, the eating clubs look like fraternities, some with rushes (called “bicker”) and some totally open. What is the need that fraternities (which don’t have their own houses) are serving that the eating clubs aren’t?</p>
<p>You can’t join an eating club until your sophomore spring, and you want access to parties before then. Until you join a club, you may feel like you don’t have a secure social base, or that you are perpetually a supplicant, always having to ask for guest passes or to be put on the guest list. Greek organizations allow you “full membership” in something before you can join a club. It even ameliorates the previous problem of having to feel like a supplicant because your older Greek brothers and sisters will freely offer you guest passes and invitations to formals and other special events without you having to ask. When bicker season comes, they give you frank advice on how to comport yourself, and you can depend on them to speak up for you during discussions to persuade the other members to offer you a bid in the bicker club.</p>
<p>But between “bickered” clubs and “rushed” fraternities, isn’t that an awful lot of time expended on being part of institutions inside an already exclusive institution that trade on exclusivity?</p>
<p>Birds of a feather, perhaps? In my opinion, kids at Princeton seek to distinguish themselves from their peers in many different aspects of life, and this is just another one of them. If you present them with a system that seems scalable (in the sense of a ladder or a wall), they will attempt to scale it, just to prove that they can.</p>
<p>My recollection is that something like 20% of Princeton students try, but fail, to get into a bicker club. I think that’s a lot.</p>
<p>Yeah I think about 50-55% of the sophomore class bickers each year, and about 35% of the sophomore class ends up in a bicker club, although these numbers may change with the reopening of Cannon.</p>
<p>This is true, but I think it is a small part of why they are perceived by students as two different kinds of organizations. The mention of weekly chapter meetings reminds me that from what I have heard about Greek organizations, there are often a lot of time commitment obligations, such as chapter meetings and participation in events. From my understanding, and maybe ray can confirm this, Eating Clubs don’t have those kinds of obligations, which would be a big plus for many students. Kids are as involved as they feel like being in social activities. Also, virtually no hazing (although I think there is at least one club that might have some initiation rites of passage). And, of course, they are coed, which makes for a very different environment for a lot of people. I believe they simply do not try as hard to foster a socially tight-knit atmosphere in the way that most frats and sororities seem to.</p>
<p>The mention of weekly chapter meetings reminds me that from what I have heard about Greek organizations, there are often a lot of time commitment obligations, such as chapter meetings and participation in events.</p>
<p>Frats have a lot more obligations than sororities, I’d say, because frats are smaller (11 frats vs. 3 sororities). A lot of my female friends would only attend one or two regular chapter meetings each semester. However, there are awards for good attendance.</p>
<p>From my understanding, and maybe ray can confirm this, Eating Clubs don’t have those kinds of obligations, which would be a big plus for many students. Kids are as involved as they feel like being in social activities. Also, virtually no hazing (although I think there is at least one club that might have some initiation rites of passage).</p>
<p>Yes, eating clubs come with virtually no obligatory events, besides bicker and discussions. All the clubs, selective or not, haze new members a little (in differing ways, and to differing extents), but it only happens once or twice.</p>
<p>And, of course, they are coed, which makes for a very different environment for a lot of people. I believe they simply do not try as hard to foster a socially tight-knit atmosphere in the way that most frats and sororities seem to.</p>
<p>Very true. Both of these are clear reasons for people to want to be in a frat or sorority. I did not mention them earlier because I figured these were impetuses that applied to frats and sororities at all colleges, and wanted to focus on other reasons people rush at Princeton (i.e., motivations that may not exist elsewhere).</p>
<p>“You can’t join an eating club until your sophomore spring, and you want access to parties before then. Until you join a club, you may feel like you don’t have a secure social base, or that you are perpetually a supplicant, always having to ask for guest passes or to be put on the guest list.”</p>
<p>That is very, very helpful. So, it seems, that frats really serve the needs of first-year students, and less so as they progress.</p>
<p>Somewhat off topic, I’ve always preferred colleges and universities where housing (and eating) are mixed from day one, as opposed to those (like my alma mater) where there is a freshman ghetto. Some for reasons you’ve well stated. Other reasons is the isolation means the blind-leading-the-blind. Mixed housing provides more opportunities to learn about different courses, different professors, how to approach faculty for mentoring/research opportunities, more information (from experience) about internships, or even the best work-study jobs to seek. Some students (extroverts) will figure these things out easily on their own, but mixed housing makes it more available to all students (and also provides day-to-day role models for incoming students).</p>
<p>So, it seems, that frats really serve the needs of first-year students, and less so as they progress.</p>
<p>Precisely why the frats/sororities see this freshman rush ban as a thinly-veiled attempt to rid the school of frat/sorority influence altogether. You’ll rush your sophomore fall, but won’t become a full member until your sophomore spring, which is… when you join an eating club and frats/sororities become superfluous to some extent. Whoops!</p>
<p>I’ve always preferred colleges and universities where housing (and eating) are mixed from day one, as opposed to those (like my alma mater) where there is a freshman ghetto. Some for reasons you’ve well stated. Other reasons is the isolation means the blind-leading-the-blind.</p>
<p>At Princeton, freshmen are assigned to one of six residential colleges. Three of them (2-year res colleges) house only freshmen and sophomores, while the other three (4-year res colleges) house juniors and seniors in addition to freshmen and sophomores. You would think the latter would provide better informal advising from older students, but that is not necessarily the case.</p>
<p>While freshmen and sophomores mingle pretty well, the juniors and seniors who live in residential colleges tend to be, forgive me for stereotyping, not the most outgoing of people. I lived my freshman and sophomore years ('07-'09) in a 4-year res college, and had almost zero interaction in the res college with any junior or senior who wasn’t an RA-type figure.</p>
Aren’t these the upperclassmen who didn’t (or couldn’t) join an eating club? My understanding is that folks in eating clubs live in different housing.</p>
<p>“Of course, you’ve just restated one of the claims commonly made in favor of fraternities and sororities.”</p>
<p>Understood. An many colleges and universities have proven that they can accomplish this successfully without the exclusivity, selection, etc of such a system. (The house system at Smith immediately comes to mind.)</p>
<p>“Precisely why the frats/sororities see this freshman rush ban as a thinly-veiled attempt to rid the school of frat/sorority influence altogether. You’ll rush your sophomore fall, but won’t become a full member until your sophomore spring, which is… when you join an eating club and frats/sororities become superfluous to some extent. Whoops!”</p>
<p>Why do you think it is thinly veiled? I thought it pretty overt.</p>
<p>Not necessarily. At least in my son’s case no. He chose to stay in his residential college for next year (his junior year) because he was able to draw into a nice size single. He has what is called a “shared meal plan” which allows him to some meals at his club and some at the residential college…all for the same price.</p>
<p>Also, for students who intend to do their own cooking there are much better options than the residential college. There are apartment style houses with kitchens in them and also food co-ops.</p>
<p>So, the university freshman have a need for more inclusion among upperclassmen and social opportunities to meet and befriend those same upperclassmen. As a result those brothers (who have spent time with them) advocate for these individuals later to join their social circle (eating club). The university takes this opportunity away, yet doesn’t put anything in place that addresses the initial need for fraternities and sororities had filled.</p>
<p>It seems that administration has some work to do if they truly care about the freshman experience. I could see those exclusive eating clubs becoming less diverse if there is no easy way to break in to the social circle.</p>
<p>Aren’t these the upperclassmen who didn’t (or couldn’t) join an eating club? My understanding is that folks in eating clubs live in different housing.</p>
<p>Mostly, yes. About 5% of eating club members (mostly RAs, but not all) have shared meal plans and split their time between the res colleges and eating clubs. Each club gets to set the number of members who can be on shared meal plans. I believe the number varies from 4 to 20 per club. </p>
<p>@mini:</p>
<p>Why do you think it is thinly veiled? I thought it pretty overt."</p>
<p>It’s thinly-veiled because the University refuses to say that this is their reason for instituting a freshman rush ban. Also, “thinly-veiled” and “pretty overt” are terms that seem more complementary than contradictory, IMO</p>
<p>Studies done by the University revealed that fraternities are mostly comprised of wealthy white kids. So I don’t think they are helping with diversity in the eating clubs. If anything they would be making them less diverse.</p>
Where do the rest of the eating club members live? Do they live in housing mixed up with other students, or do they mostly live with members of their own club?</p>
<p>^But is that true of Princeton as well? the exclusiv eating clubs are also filled with wealthy white kids, many of whom probably knew each other from same towns, high schools, prep schools, etc. But unless fraternity and sorority recruitment is completely different at Princeton, then an engaging and confident freshman can join a group by displaying excellent social skills, even if he/she didn’t grow up on the East Coast. How exactly are these freshman going to meet these upperclassmen that will advocate for them outside of EC clubs? Is it common for freshman and juniors to be in classes together? Already it sounds like housing is not mixed for members of eating clubs.</p>