<p>Though I'm glad the clubs are at least talking about the issue, this article in the DP is a little disturbing. The article seems to have a "where there's smoke there's fire" tone to it. Quotes:</p>
<p>There is still the occasional name-calling and harassment that is directed towards same-sex couples, Mukasa said. These negative experiences can course through the community and create feelings of anxiety. Individuals dont want to have to worry about whether they will be harassed for dancing or holding hands with someone of the same gender. ......</p>
<p>They mentioned instances where they said people had beer thrown on them because they were a same-sex couple walking in, Zhang said. There was jeering when two girls were walking around the Street; they got catcalled and whatnot. Its only hearsay, and it hasnt been verified, but its what theyve heard.</p>
<p>I am trying to decide between Princeton and couple of other top schools this month, and this is giving me pause. I had heard that the atmosphere at P relative to H and Y was a little more "juvenile.", a phenomenon driven by the eating clubs.</p>
<p>Eating clubs already show a lack of diversity (in race and in income), so I’m not surprised that this is also a problem.</p>
<p>Princeton’s known for being a little more conservative than its peers, and I think it’s examples like this–and eating clubs in general–where that conservatism shows. This is far from the first time I’ve heard about homophobia at Princeton. I hope you have options as good as Princeton–I sure as hell wouldn’t want to attend (and I’m gay).</p>
<p>When I visited, the LGBT Center stated that some members of eating clubs can feel uncomfortable with same-sex PDAs but don’t voice it. The presidents of the eating clubs wrote and signed a letter supporting the LGBT community and endorsing Pride Week. There may be some awkwardness at some clubs, but others are known as hosting strong gay communities.</p>
<p>*"“What was interesting to us about the demography of the clubs was that African-American students and international students are underrepresented in the clubs as a whole, although it varies a bit club by club,” Durkee said.</p>
<p>“Asians tend to represent a different profile in that they are quite underrepresented in the selective clubs but very over-represented in the sign-in clubs and the non-selective clubs,” Durkee noted. On the other hand, “Latino and Hispanic students are represented in the clubs in the same proportion that they are in the student body,” he said."*</p>
<p>This doesn’t tell you, though, whether African-American and Asian students are less likely to bicker, or whether they are more likely to get hosed. Certainly, it suggests that Asians, at least, want to be in eating clubs.</p>
<p>^^^and that Hispanics are represented in the clubs in the same proportion that they are in the student body…</p>
<p>regarding economic diversity, Princeton will increase the scholarship to undergraduates to make up for the difference in cost between the Eating Clubs and the Princeton Dining option.</p>
<p>As a member of the LGBT community you really only have to avoid PDA in TI and Cottage, but that’s because those are the clubs that have overwhelming drunk jock contingents. It would be like going to a finals club at Harvard or a DKE party at Yale and dancing with a member of the same sex. I’ve never seen nor personally experienced an episode of actual harassment (there was some blacked-out idiot booing a gay couple making out in Ivy, but it didn’t escalate and there were plenty of people there telling him he was an idiot). Bigotry is not tolerated at Princeton, either by university policy or by social norms. I’m sad that this article gave you the impression that it is or has been.</p>
<p>Funny, I was just talking to a gay alum friend who was telling me about not making it into Ivy in 1997 because of the objection of one person (probable homophobe), much to the distress of his good friends there who wanted him in the club. This did not diminish his absolute love of Princeton and he is a devoted alum. </p>
<p>I mentioned this to D and she said that would never be the case today since the dance company Dsiac (with some gay members) is one of the feeder groups into Ivy.</p>
<p>I didn’t mean to put Ivy down. It probably has one of the stronger gay populationsnext to Terrace and Toweron the street (as a member of disiac, I can attest to the fact that at least we are pretty damn gay). It was an isolated incident during formals from a guy who was extremely intoxicated.</p>
<p>My qualms are more with the income disparities. It’s a bastion of rich-prep-school elitism at Princeton. And I’m not surprised that this “where there’s smoke there’s fire” article came out in the Prince.</p>
<p>phanta, oh gee…, Ivy, Cottage and TI represent 3/10’s of the Princeton Eating Clubs. Why don’t we take a look at what are considered the top 3 Stanford, Penn or Dartmouth Frats and see how many non-white students at those frats had family incomes of less than $150,000. My guess is that you are not going to find much of a difference.</p>
<p>japanoko, you’re right. The selective eating clubs are exactly like frats, except that they are coed and you don’t live there. They have the same pros and cons, essentially. And they are a big deal on campus, just like frats and sororities are at other schools. This is something that differs from school to school, and it matters to some people–some people want that kind of setting, and others don’t.</p>
<p>But Hunt, only a few of the 10 Eating Clubs have that fratty air, as I understand it. They are probably a lot more diverse in their distinctive reputations/character than any frat selection at other colleges. People who want to stay away from that preppy/elitist vibe and still join a club (such as my D) have many options.</p>
<p>As an example, this same gay friend I mentioned told me that he considered joining Terrace at the time but that it was so full of the political liberals like himself, he decided to go for a club with more contrasting types. (I don’t know if this is still true of Terrace). So I think the Eating Clubs are comparable to fraternities and sororities in some ways, but they are really much more inclusive, since with at least half, it’s a lottery to join.</p>
<p>In any case, this issue has been discussed many times in this forum, a simple search on “Eating Clubs” will offer many threads on the subject with input from actual students and alums, not just posters like phantasmagoric and myself, who have no first-hand knowledge of the clubs.</p>
<p>At some colleges, the Greek system is very hierarchical; at others, it’s more open, and just about everybody gets a bid. While Princeton’s system is different in some significant ways, it is still on that same continuum. It’s just one of the things people want to know about–and it’s something Princetonians are defensive about, just as people are defensive about Greek systems.</p>
<p>I think the Eating Clubs are really hard to explain. In my opinion they are NOT like fraternities. People make that analogy because that’s the closest thing they can think of. </p>
<p>My very laid back son would not even consider applying to any universities with a strong fraternity presence on campus. He hangs out at Terrace and Charter on weekends. He loves that they are co-ed and very welcoming. He has no interest in the bicker clubs, but has friends that do and that’s fine also.</p>
<p>They are not perfect, but really…people with no firsthand knowledge of them should not be so quick to put them down. The students generally love them. Even those who don’t join will often go to socialize on the weekends.</p>
<p>soomoo, I don’t doubt you, but I have to note that just about everything anybody says about the eating clubs (except for being coed) is said about Greek organizations as well–including the exact same things you said.</p>
<p>Agreed with soomoo–eating clubs are not the same as Greek organizations. japanoko, you’ve made that claim so many times in an attempt to get others to see the eating clubs in a better light, but the fact is they aren’t the same. I could see a comparison to a Greek system that is prevalent–where almost everyone is in a Greek organization. The key differences have been explained to you before, so if you still want to stick to your guns, then I think we can agree to disagree.</p>
<p>In the end, even if the Greek system does have those same disparities, it’s irrelevant. We’re talking about eating clubs.</p>
<p>The co-ed thing is actually quite huge and also students do not live in the eating clubs which is also quite huge.</p>
<p>I think that it’s fine for prospective students not to come to Princeton if they don’t like the idea of the Eating Clubs, but I think it’s fair to wish that they would make an informed decision about them. I think that’s why most Alums get so defensive. </p>
<p>BTW I also have no problem with people defending fraternities either. I am sure there is a lot of misinformation out there about them too. I wasn’t trying to bash fraternities. I was only trying to point out that saying they are “like co-ed fraternities” is too simplistic.</p>