Princeton vs U Michigan. Need urgent help!!

<p>Princeton is one of the nation's top 5 universities, Michigan is one of the nation's top 10 or top 15 universities. If he prefers Michigan to Princeton, he should go there. It's not like Princeton will offer him a better education or a better future. </p>

<p>This said, there are three, maybe four universities that I would pick over Michigan, and Princeton happens to be one of them (MIT, Stanford and maybe Harvard are the other two or three schools). But fit is very important. I would pick Michigan over Yale in a heartbeat. If your son does not like Princeton and has the option of attending another top 10 or top 15 university, so be it.</p>

<p>wow, I agree those are two really lousy reasons to pick UM over Princeton. Not that it's a bad rational choice. UM is very strong in engineering, so he could conceivably end up with the right choice for the wrong reason!</p>

<p>I recommend he takes a year or a semester off from school. I'm sure he has been grinding for four straight years. </p>

<p>Your son has more problems than which school to attend... the "break" is merely a surface issue that underlies his dissatisfaction with the GRIND. </p>

<p>At least he's being honest with you. Good for him.</p>

<p>P.S. My neighbor was accepted to Berkeley in engineering three years ago... but for 2nd semester matriculation. He traveled in the US, then three months in Australia, then came back to start at Berkeley. He was ready for Berkeley by then, and has done really well, top of the class, and an RA to boot. I think kids work SOOOO hard in high school these days that it is a very good idea to take a 6-9 month break before starting another HAAARD four years.</p>

<p>fatladysings --</p>

<p>Interesting to hear about the super intense atmosphere of science majors at Princeton. That I can assure you is very different from Stanford, UCLA, but sounds about like UC Berkeley's premed weed-out progression.</p>

<p>Sounds like OP's son is not pre-med, but engineering. I'll bet there isn't the same weed-out there.</p>

<p>I'm a natural sciences major at Princeton (Ecology & Evol. Bio), and it really depends on the department for the super-intense weed-out factor, but it definitely exists. The biggest culprits are the Maths, Physics, Mol. Bio, and Astrophysics departments. These departments are heavily based on performance inside and outside the classroom, and often professors will very forthrightly tell students of their shortcomings and say "Maybe this department isn't for you." This is not as much of a problem in Chemistry, Psychology, and EEB, but it really depends upon what you intend to do later on.</p>

<p>As for the SEAS (School of Engineering & App. Science), many people drop out of that program and switch to the A.B. because there are considerable extra requirements for B.S.E's (mainly having to take 6 courses a semester, 5 if you are a freshman). However, B.S.E's also don't have to take a foreign language, or write a senior thesis. Go figure. I actually think many departments in SEAS, including Chem E. Elec. E, Mech./Aerospace E, and Civil/Environmental E. are more attentive to students because these departments are by virtue of being in a smaller program, smaller. Therefore, DunninLA is right to say there is much less of a weed-out in SEAS, but it is definitely not a cake-walk, for sure.</p>

<p>thank you for that input tokyorevelation9</p>

<p>DunninLA,</p>

<p>thank you for your reasonable analysis about my son's situation.</p>

<p>tokyorevelation9,</p>

<p>Thank you for your input. Do you have any details about the school load of the engineering majors? My son had 9 APs in junior and got most 5s he has 6 Aps this year. I think he can handle it. But he thought it will be very difficult for him to survive after he visited P and talked with a engineering host student. Is that hard?</p>

<p>As I said in my earlier post, B.S.E students have to take 6 courses/semester in order to have enough credits to graduate (5/semester for freshmen). This is one more course per semester than A.B. students. Also, engineers have a good deal of other requirements, especially in maths and the natural sciences (some of which are not recommended to be placed out by AP credit). </p>

<p>However, the flipside is they ** don't have to take a foreign language or do a senior thesis <a href="although%20many%20do%20a%20large%20research%20project%20as%20a%20senior">/b</a>. </p>

<p>It is highly possible that the host student your son met has an exceptionally heavy courseload because he is working on a certificate in another area as well, or he is just taking very advanced courses. Or he could just be taking a subject or two to which he doesn't have a natural talent. </p>

<p>One word of advice... do not let your son rely on AP placement , especially as a freshman in the hard sciences. It is a common occurrence that students end up WAY over their heads and opt (or plead uncle) to take the lower course. This happens especially to freshmen who get 5's on the AP Chemistry exam and decide to take organic chem their freshman fall. Bad, bad idea, not just because its a tough course, but they haven't formulated a good study schedule and strategy for intensive laboratory courses like orgo, and if he's not ridiculously diligent, the stress will hit like the Orient Express. </p>

<p>Just a word to the wise.</p>

<p>tokyorevelation9.</p>

<p>Thank you so much. I will take your advice into consideration.</p>

<p>tokyorevelation9 has provided more detail than I possibly could. But I would like to provide a general observation as the parent of a first year Princeton student.
It is more than possible to be the acknowledged star (in science or other subjects) in your high school and fall to the bottom half in the same subject at Princeton. Half do, after all.
When I visited Princeton with my daughter, we talked to a student who was an astrophysics major. He quickly realized that he would be a mediocre contributor to his hoped for profession and changed his plans.
I have a good friend who was a Physics major at Amherst. In an advanced course of 5 students, he quickly realized he was, in his own words, the "stupidest" in the class. He changed his plans and is now a neo-natal intensive care pediatric MD at the University of Chicago. And a terrific one.
The culture at Princeton, from what I can figure out, is not to "eat their young". It's just that most us will realize that there are others smarter (sometimes much smarter) than we are.</p>

<p>sorry fatladysings "Kids are under so much pressure these days" blah blah blah. The kids fighting in Iraq are under pressure not to mention kids in Iraq. So give me a break with that. I think this is where parents have to be parents and stop relinquishing authority to their children..... </p>

<p>First of all, there is a 99% chance the GF will be gone by 1st semester, in fact if you find the thread; kids on this site talk about this. Secondly, what is he talking about a "break"? Take that break over the summer pal. Again you think kids in Iraq are taking a "break." It seems this sense of entitlement is something that afflicts way too many children. It definitely speaks to a lack of maturity. 3) Keefer is RIGHT ON POINT. You think life at a major institution is going to be easier pal? Get back to me when you are having trouble and trying to get access to a professor who has 300 other students in his/her class. Michigan is not a chumpy little state school, it is Michigan and like my institution (check my name) it is sink or swim. You are going to need to hustle to get courses you want, hustle to get through the bureacracy and hustle to see an overburdened professor who is going to try and pass you off on a T.A. who may or may not speak English you can understand (that is not a knock on international students it is a complaint amongst students however). So he is obviously delusional about an "easier" time at Michigan. Having said all this he is not going to be coddled like he would be at Princeton, where you can actually have dinner with your professors on a weekly basis. Why do you think Ivy students matriculate so well? They get the best of resources in every way! Access to faculty, grad students serve as their TUTORS not their TA's, free food at every social event on campus! </p>

<p>His decision is not a smart one it is a selfish one, which gets me to my final point. He needs to know this isn't just about him. It is about all the hard work his parents did to put him in this position. It would be selfish and a disappointment to not honor that. </p>

<p>Grow up and go to Princeton.</p>

<p>My friend was going through the same crap with her son, fortunately he made the right choice</p>

<p>...and that's my cue to exit stage left <em>tappity tap tap</em></p>

<p>UCLA, Ph.D.
Thanks for your input. I sent a private message to you.</p>

<p>Good Luck Dad81</p>

<p>dad81 and UCLA, Ph.D. -</p>

<p>While I acknowledge the need for kids understand the realities of life, to let go of a sense of entitlement, and to work hard from an early age, it's all about balance, and each individual kid's emotional strength.</p>

<p>dad81, your son has worked much, much harder than most kids, as evidenced by his ridiculously difficult course load the past three years. It is possible to emotionally burn out. While his intellect is going full guns, it is writing checks his emotional health may not be able to cash. I'm not saying he has burnt out, but burnout is a part of life and is not something to be taken lightly. If he is truly burnt out, and there is no break scheduled, he could suffer an emotional breakdown.</p>

<p>UCLA, Ph.D. - do you acknowledge the social sciences of psychology and sociology? Do you side with Tom Cruise or Brooke Shields (Princeton, btw) around the issue of her post partum depression? Reason I ask is that your penultimate post sounds as intolerant as Tom Cruise's statements about psychologists.</p>

<p>If you have read my posts, you would see that I attended Stanford and was waitlisted at Yale. At the time I didn't know about the LACs. I've learned about them from fellow grad students and employees over the years.</p>

<p>My bad, I don't have an obsession hunting down people I disagree with and reading all their posts so I can refute all their points.</p>

<p>Good, I don't like being the object of obsessions! And I also attended UCLA.</p>

<p>"And I also attended UCLA." </p>

<p>Then you should know better.</p>

<p>I completely agree with UCLA up to this point:</p>

<p>"He needs to know this isn't just about him. It is about all the hard work his parents did to put him in this position. It would be selfish and a disappointment to not honor that."</p>

<p>That's CRAZY. I had my mom read it and she didn't even agree! It's his life, it's his time to make his own mistakes. Yes, he has pretty terrible reasons to go to UM (there are MUCH better reasons out there), but that doesn't give a parent the right to make decisions for him the rest of his life. He needs to decide what job he'll take, where he'll live, who he'll marry- that's all part of life, and it starts with this decision. I'm ALL FOR someone sitting down with him and saying that he shouldn't make his decision on those two reasons (guess what? There are plenty of hot girls at Pton too!), but in the end, the decision should be his.</p>

<p>Talk with him, don't force him, and don't say he's being selfish (I know you didn't say that, Dad81)- but BOTH are great schools and even if he is picking one for the wrong reasons, and is maybe making the wrong decision, he's the one that will "suffer the consequences."</p>