Princeton vs. Yale

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>Very strange individual. Alumother, if you're correct, I'm confused. F.scottie, if you're correct, I'm embarrassed and a little ashamed of what kind of image of Harvard this leaves on these message boards.</p>

<p>Now curious, I read the Amazon.com review of the book Byerly is recommending. Based on the excerpts in that review it's clear that the author paints a very ugly picture of the historical admission process at ALL of the Big Three. Reading just Byerly's excerpts one would think that the book is simply an expose of the evils at Princeton. I suspect we won't see excerpts from the book quoted by our message board friend that reflect badly on Harvard (particularly the passages relating to anti-Semitism there). If you're interested in a more balanced presentation of the contents of the book, in a review by Publishers Weekly, here is the link to the review.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618574581/qid=1131141937/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-3633653-8726501?v=glance&s=books%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618574581/qid=1131141937/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-3633653-8726501?v=glance&s=books&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>My apologies, the long review is actually from the Washington Post Book World.</p>

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<p>Byerly was an undergrad student at harvard, he's in the alumni directory. As for Princeton V. Yale, I think the two schools are actually very different in their feel and I suspect it is this difference in their characters (and not any perceived ranking) that sways a student one way or the other.</p>

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<p>I will not respond in kind to the ad hominem attacks of the self-captioned Mr. "Rational", except to say that I have posted links to numerous reviews of this important book on the Harvard and Yale websites as well as the Princeton website and - I believe - the Stanford site, as well as at "the other place." Sorry if newbie "Rational" missed them. It is obvious that he DID miss them, or he wouldn't have been so quick to mischaracterize my views.</p>

<p>As most reviews point out, the story "The Chosen" tells - much of it known heretofore - about rampant racism and anti-semitism at "The Big Three" in the early part of this century is an ugly one indeed.</p>

<p>If I may be permitted however, the subject matter of this thread is the common admit battles - particularly between Princeton and Yale. "The Chosen" has a great deal to say about this topic too - and I suspect that this material may prove to be of equally great interest and equally provocative at this site.</p>

<p>So I urge Mr. "Rational" not to pronounce judgment from on high until he has read the book itself - and not just an Amazon review. Perhaps he might also be a little slower to make ad hominem attacks on others who may - unlikely as that may seem to him - be almost as informed as he is!</p>

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<p>Byerly, your haughty reply is really too much. I’m a little embarrassed to be responding to you but you seem to like the attention. To begin with, I should admit that it’s a sinful pleasure even to be reading these boards. I’m a father of a teenager who is currently applying to Harvard, Princeton and Yale (as well as other good schools). When I was told about the site I became interested and started following some of the threads. (My teenager does as well and I’d prefer to retain some anonymity so as not to be seen as an officious parent.) I suppose the pleasure is in reliving the excitement that so many of the students express when thinking publicly about their futures. I have found a good deal of useful information here, much of it more current than my admittedly dated memories of these places and it has given my wife and me a new perspective on the current atmosphere at each of these three great schools. On the other hand, I have also found a great deal of false or completely unsupported ‘information’ disseminated apparently to bolster egos or win debating points. For my own postings, I chose the moniker “Rational” simply because I wanted to use the opportunity to correct patently false statements when I found them.</p>

<p>When I first started reading your postings they seemed to be well-informed and useful. However, it has since become clear to me that your agenda is so transparent and your posting style so aggressive that you have come to be seen by many on CC as a ‘board bully’. The board and the readers of these postings deserve better. Yes, I do now see that you’ve posted on the Harvard and Yale boards about this book. It should be noted, however, that it is only on the Princeton board that you have gone out of your way to post negative (even derisive) excerpts. You do neither yourself nor our alma mater any honor in behaving in this way.</p>

<p>I will also repeat my earlier assertion that, if your excerpt about the 2002 Princeton/Yale Admissions Offices story has not been taken out of context, then the author of this book simply does not know the true story. I’m very comfortable in stating that my version is correct.</p>

<p>When I posted, I had thought that mine was a mild chiding to point out that the picture of Princeton you were encouraging through your choice of excerpts wasn’t necessarily accurate or deserved. Your simultaneously wounded and superior response doesn’t really address the ‘hacking’ story about which I was writing. Allow me to add (as a professor of mine – and possibly yours) once pointed out, ad hominem attacks are most effectively served up with syrup and good grammar as yours seem to be.</p>

<p>Let me be very clear to any other readers of this little exchange that I have no agenda here. As I’ve learned more about the current undergraduate life at the three colleges I have had some concerns, particularly in regard to what appears to be a mini crime wave at Yale. However, I have ties to all three of these schools and think that each has special strengths. Our teenager would be delighted to be accepted at any one of them.</p>

<p>I know that you’ll want the final word, Byerly, and I’ll let you have it if you wish. I do encourage you, however, to look more closely at your own motivations. If you wish to take that as an ad hominem attack, so be it.</p>

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<p>I feel a disturbance in the force ...</p>

<p>I sense the presence of lots of parents ... arguing about ... motives, rationality, cabanas the cheese.</p>

<p>I'm sorry that I'm somewhat illiterate but what is a Hominem attack? It sounds like something to do with being homophobic? Im sorry to be asking but its quite a funny word?</p>

<p>Byerly has a very passionate tone whenever you mention Harvard. The White knight ... always defending harvard... to maintain her supremacy over all other, no matter what ... :p Kinda romantic in a way actually ... I could do a lit analysis on byerly's writing but I'd rather spend my time jumping up and down all the way to my gf's place :p</p>

<p>Wouldnt the moral of this whole story be: If you can- visit your schools and see how its like yourself first hand. Then ask lots of people (from a variety of sources both past and present) and draw your own conclusions. :)</p>

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<p><wouldnt the="" moral="" of="" this="" whole="" story="" be:="" if="" you="" can-="" visit="" your="" schools="" and="" see="" how="" its="" like="" yourself="" first="" hand.="" then="" ask="" lots="" people="" (from="" a="" variety="" sources="" both="" past="" present)="" draw="" own="" conclusions.=""></wouldnt></p>

<p>An excellent approach, and one that I have always advised applicants to take. Personally, I have never, EVER, urged an applicant to select one college over another for this very reason: it is a personal decision that should be based on as much information as the applicant can acquire.</p>

<p>Among other sources to consider, IMHO, might be "The Chosen" - which provides a richly-detailed picture of Harvard, Yale and Princeton admission practices from the turn of the last century down to the present day. Of course each of these institutions has changed substantially, with "diversity" being the current watchword. Nevertheless, "as the twig is bent, so is the tree inclined", as the saying goes. The modern-day institutions cannot entirely escape their past.</p>

<p>It would, however, be foolish to ignore the choices made by other informed applicants who have gone before. No one in his or her right mind who is about to consider a nearly $200,000 purchase (ie, an Ivy or other private elite education) should ignore the choices made by similarly-qualified peers. This is why the "Revealed Preference" study, yield rates and cross-admit data is important: it tells you how other top applicants have "voted with their feet."</p>

<p>But just as Consumer Reports can rate a Lexus head and shoulders above other models, and yet some customers for whom price is no object nevertheless insist on buying a Cadillac, so too do higher education customers make their selection based on a variety of factors personal to them.</p>

<p>But (to stretch the analogy) ignore at your peril the information supplied by the marketplace.</p>

<p>One last caution: the "campus visit" - while potentially useful - is not always the best way to decide. Think of "The Blind Men and the Elephant": your experience in one 3-hour visit may not be typical of the life you will lead at that location for 4 years. It may not always be raining, or, conversely, the sun may not always be shining. Your host may or may not be representative of other undergraduates.</p>

<p>This is as true of Princeton and Yale - the two schools the OP seeks to compare in this thread - as it is of any other schools. (Recall that it was not I who sought to insert Harvard into the discussion.)</p>

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<p>"Ad hominem" is Latin for "to the man". It's when, instead of refuting an argument, one attacks or insults the person making the argument.</p>

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<p>David Brooks articles on Princeton verified what I had always thought, that the while the kids are great, they are "professional" students who treat their education as a job, the way a somewhat bored lawyer would. Harvard seems to be largely free of this attitude, which is a real plus. Yale seems to be closer to Princeton on this scale. As if others were needed, this reason alone would explain why Harvard wins the lion's share of cross admits with Yale and Princeton. Brown is closer to Harvard in this regard and has become the hottest Ivy because of this. If Yale an Princeton want to win more cross-admits with Harvard, maybe they should contemplate Brown instead of their each other's navels.</p>

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<p>Hello, Rational, and a warm welcome to you. It's clear you're a good addition here. Good luck to your teenager, and let us know if we can answer any questions. </p>

<p>Mensa, as someone who knows many Princeton students I can tell you that you are doing yourself a disservice if you buy into David Brooks's simplistic view (which you didn't accurately represent, btw). "Bored" is about the last adjective I can think of applying to Princeton students. They are curious, excited to explore, friendly and fun-loving, and eager to put their curiosity and intelligence into individual and collective action in many different ways. And, btw, I'm a Brown alum.</p>

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<p>aparent, my focus is on the excessive competitiveness of Yale and Princeton, not the students, who would act like harvard students at Harvard and Brown students at Brown. Brown and Harvard are to be commended for creating an atmosphere that kids like. My questions is why other schools don't look at their practices, and attract more cross admits.</p>

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<p>for mensa, here's "the truth about harvard." it's another piece written for the atlantic that is probably no more or less representative of the harvard experience than brooks's piece is of the princeton experience. by the way, you should know that brooks substantially revised his thesis after 9/11.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200503/douthat%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200503/douthat&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Although a Brown alum, are you not also, at this stage, a proud Princeton parent? </p>

<p>Nothing wrong with that, surely. Having a child at Princeton is indeed something to be proud of - just as scottie is a proud alum, and Alumother is <em>both</em> a proud alum and a proud Princeton parent!.</p>

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<p>Byerly, of course I am a proud Princeton parent. I mentioned Brown because Mensa had referred to my alma mater in such positive terms.</p>

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<p>Just visit the campus overnight on the weekends and you will see just how grossly false mensas comments are. Very untrue and uninformed</p>

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<p>Sorry, I didn't really mean for the discussion to turn verbal war. I just wanted to know which school you guys would pick if you were admitted to both.</p>

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<p>What makes you think "these guys" are a representative sample?</p>