<p>Dartmouth is a reach for most everyone. If you have a particular counselor in mind, or one has been strongly recommended to you, I would encourage you to at least interview the counselor. Do the same with your high school counselor and then make the decision.</p>
<p>Good counselors have relationships with colleges, and they can help in the application process in ways that parents may not be able because of lack of knowledge or time.</p>
<p>It would be inaccurate to say every private counselor “packages” a student. Each student has different needs in the college planning process.</p>
<p>Some parents can help their students with this process…and some can’t. Some students don’t have the time or knowledge of how to build a reasonable college list. </p>
<p>Counseling offices across the country have cut counselors and increased student caseload. If we had relied only on the GC, there are numerous schools my kids wouldn’t have applied to or gotten merit aid money. </p>
<p>Good counselors can be found in many different price ranges. Its a fallacy to suggest that it’s a waste of money for every family - you might be surprised with the results.</p>
<p>Everyone can do their own taxes, too - but many of us hire professionals to help us when it comes to filing our taxes. </p>
<p>We can also sell our own homes by ourselves but we usually hire real estate agents to help navigate the process so we don’t make any mistakes.</p>
<p>If you can help your kid with this process, more power to you. But if you don’t have the time or energy to learn everything there is to learn about the process, hiring a professional can make this time much less stressful for your kid.</p>
<p>Sorry, I have to disagree. Applying to a college does not involve understanding volumes and volumes of rules/law and tax codes, or trying to avoid the things that can go wrong with real estate transaction. To get into a school, generally, the most important factors are grades and standardized test scores, no counselors can package that. There maybe ways to dress yourself up with ECs, recommendations and essays but unless you absolutely need to go to a school that is quite a reach, I don’t see the need. Have a decent list of schools that are reasonable and reachable, and you will be fine. We are talking about a couple of essays and a list of ECs that you presumably have already done for each application.</p>
<p>I even heard an adcom saying that she could really tell when a student gets extra help with the essay and she said that was a big turn off. The best essay, she said, is usually the simple one that obviously comes from the kid.</p>
<p>We got a private counsellor for D because she thought it would help her. I, frankly, did not, but I thought the psychological comfort D received was worth it–only a few hours at $150 per hour. D wanted to go to Dartmouth, and is attending, even though the counsellor wasn’t particularly supportive of Dartmouth–too much drinking she thought (can’t say she was wrong). D did get an idea for her essay from the counsellor which she went with and the counsellor did suggest a few schools to apply to, which D did. So, although some help, more was psychological. If you don’t want to spend the money you don’t have to. Loads of information here and elsewhere on the web.</p>
<p>Went with a counsellor for my son a few years back. When all was said and done, I thought she was a waste of my money. She suggested a few schools, but ones that my son had little interest in. </p>
<p>My son did not really want my input for his essays and writing was definitely his weak point. I talked with him about his essay topics and made some verbal suggestions. He didn’t show me his essays until ot was almost time to submit them. However, he did have one of his buddies that was strong in English read them over and comment on them. When he finally did show them to me, it was surprising the quality of them. He also, at that point, shared them with the counsellor. So, she really didn’t get a chance at any input. However, the comments she did make didn’t seem real thought out.</p>
<p>Save your money and do a little research on your own with your child.</p>
<p>I agree with ttparent (post #24). If you do a little research, you will learn what essay topics to avoid and the need for a safety and financial safety.</p>
<p>I think a private counselor adds some value. As many said, it depends how much time you have and are willing to dedicate to the process and how willing your kid is to accept guidance from you. I am glad we have one, though occasionally have thought it is overpriced for what you get. Most i know have private counselors and feel they add value.</p>
<p>We used a private counselor for my older daughter on my husbands’ insistence. For the most part I thought it was a waste BUT she had a very specific goal and he was not the right person for her. The key benefit was the essay and I highly recommend a counselor to help with that.</p>
<p>Re Dartmouth - they LOVE languages, they are looking for a global citizen. Without knowing anything else about your daughter, she probably has a good chance given her high school language experience.</p>
<p>All of you are so helpful! I think I’ll to try to set up consultations with a few counselors to at least hear what they have to offer. If I can find out how a counselor approaches the process in some detail, it could help us as we start the process ourselves. amtc, I’m going to pass on the languages tip to D. It will make her happy, and she’s feeling stressed, I think, though she doesn’t say so.</p>
<p>After successfully (in my opinion, I suppose it could be debated) navigating the admissions process twice with my D’08 and S’10 I am considering a private academic counselor for my S’13. Not to recommend schools or testing, I think I have a handle on that, but more just to keep him on task with the essay deadlines so that I don’t have to be the one “holding the whip”. Kind of similar to how the other two learned to swim in group lessons at the cold local community college pool, whereas #3 had private lessons in a 90 degree pool. Live and learn?</p>
<p>^^ So true. For those who say adcoms don’t like private counselors, my friend who is a TopIvy adcom recommended that we get a private counselor for our son (though she also said she thought there were alot of bad ones around).</p>
<p>My kids are first gen college-and the oldest applied to college before I found CC!
:eek:
She attended a very small private prep school & while I was confident that she was taking the SATs etc at the right time, we ( IMO) didn’t get much helpful information about which colleges to look at considering that ( she has learning challenges) & that she would need aid.</p>
<p>We didn’t hire anyone, but I was able to piece information together and she was admitted to all the schools she applied ( some offering merit)</p>
<p>My opinion is, you probably know your kid better than anyone else & if they are open to suggestions from you- you don’t need to hire anyone.
Make up your childs criteria and rank the schools yourself- use other rankings for info- but not as your own ranking.</p>
<p>( both my kids also took a year off before college- they both have learning challenges & even though they didn’t have any problem getting into college- we felt that the extra maturation year could only help )</p>
<p>That must be from me, sorry I never said adcoms do not like counselors. Actually I never heard them say anything about private counselors. I was just relaying something I definitely heard at an info session where the person said that her favorite part of the process is reading the essays but she also said that she sees a lot of essays that seem obvious that there were a lot of outside help. She said she never cared for those, the ones she likes are the ones that have certain charms that only a 17 year old would write. I probably could never appreciate exactly what she means, but I am sure I am anecdotally paraphrasing her sentiment pretty accurately.</p>
<p>“Re Dartmouth - they LOVE languages, they are looking for a global citizen. Without knowing anything else about your daughter, she probably has a good chance given her high school language experience.”</p>
<p>So being in Spanish Honor Society (or any other language) is a big plus on a Dartmouth application? How do you know this?</p>
<p>…and, not to be totally dense, by global citizen, do you mean someone who wishes and/or works for world peace?</p>
<p>Chardo - My kids are language haters - my older has a choice of a BA or BS and has decided on whichever one does not require language. My younger will not apply to any school that requires a language unless they offer sign language to fulfill the requirement.</p>
<p>This is why when we attended the info session at Dartmouth it all stuck with me - they strongly believe that students to be competent in 2 or more languages and pay for them to travel throughout the world during 2 or more of their quarters. I’m not certain about the exact requirements but they are very heavily into international travel and fluency in languages. When we heard that my daughter had no interest in attending Dartmouth!</p>
<p>smythic - I guess that could be the best interpretation; I just meant that they want their students to be informed and knowledgeable about all cultures and languages and immersed in more than one. What they do with that knowledge is up to them.</p>
<p>Hope that helps!</p>
<p>Dartmouth’s president, Jim Yong Kim, is co-founder of Partners in Health, a global health organization. A new focus at Dartmouth under Kim’s leadership is Health Care Delivery Science, which draws on his vast experience in international medicine. He is an MD and PhD in Anthropology. It might be prudent to research this initiative and also read Tracey Kidder’s book, Mountains Beyond Mountains, for background.</p>
<p>S is in his 2nd year at Dartmouth. We’d planned on him easily attending a state university, but when he “discovered” Dartmouth weeks before beginning his senior year I told him that though I couldn’t afford to hire him a college counselor, I could become one. I dug in and started learning. I’ve enjoyed the process, have helped others, and am neck-deep in it again with my senior D.</p>
<p>As to the drinking at Dartmouth: Yes, it surely exists and S, who is quite reserved, had a lonely 1st year as an almost-non-drinker. Amazingly, he has found a great fraternity with fun-loving members who share his values and moderation. </p>
<p>Good Luck and have fun!</p>
<p>My daughter is in 10th grade now, and I began panicking in 8th grade when 2 admdirs from Brown and Harvard came to talk to our private school back then. They told us that less and less the SAT scores will probably count in the near future. The wave of the future will probably be just the essay part so they said. There is too much disparity in SAT scores between rich kids who can afford SAT prep classes and poorer kids. I agree. So they focus on GPA’s and course difficulty. They want to see kids who can “put a sentence together in a clear, cohesive manner - carry a thought from beginning to end.” Doesn’t sound like much, eh? But it is. My big gripe is that even within a school, the class difficulty is all teacher contingent. My daughter was in a regular biology class that worked twice as hard as honors bio, because the teacher was rigorous. My daughter took the SAT II bio subject test at the end of the year, even though they say you should be in honors bio before taking it. She scored a 790 (and she is not a math/science person but learned a lot from this teacher), and her friend in honors got a 580. Go figure. Some schools are more difficult than others in their classes and that’s as much a fact as classes within a school. I heard that the only school they give special consideration of courses to is Andover. But there are so many schools, both public and private, that are equally difficult imho. </p>
<p>I picked up the book (one of about 100 i have collected!) “What High Schools Don’t Tell You (WHSDTY)” and nearly threw up. The woman who wrote the book got her boys through ivy schools to the PHd level and had advice on how to start prepping - from 8th grade on - make a 4 year plan during the year and in the summers building up to a powerful resume. They want to see “progression” says she - i.e. freshman year treasurer of a board, then secretary, then VP, then President. Newsflash: it’s about popularity at least in our school. The kids run and the popular kids get on things like “honor board” to protect their friends in case they get caught drinking?! And drinking is not a big issue just at Dartmouth, the high schools are so out of control! The kids are starting to drink in middle school. It’s sickening. </p>
<p>I have to say the “WHDTY” book did have some great tips; a lot didn’t apply nor would I attempt to do some of the bold things she suggested (i.e. approach teachers about certain subjects; it would never be allowed in a private school). Her boys were math/science majors, so she didn’t have a handle on how school plays work - for example, she said if your child doesn’t get the lead, don’t let them do the show. Well, in 99% of the high schools, it is seniority, and once you audition, you CANNOT back out, and must agree to take whatever role you get, or you can forget about auditioning for future shows. They remember. She also talks about the fact that unless your child is an editor, they shouldn’t join the school paper. Good luck with that too - again it’s seniority-based. However, she did mention things I had not even thought about putting on an application/resume like John Hopkins Center for Talented Youth (which my daughter was part of since 5th grade - they test yearly at her school). Blogging becoming very important - it’s considered running an international publication. My daughter is a global citizen/activist and has done many international projects, so something like that was a benefit to read.</p>
<p>I had a very small mindframe and stayed within the school parameters of sports/varsity which she does not do; however, she does boxing and ballroom for fun outside of school on weekends which would count for something “different.” She has no time for extracurriculars after school since she is bogged down with 4-5 hours of homework a night (no life for any of these poor teens these days no matter what the school) so how does one do community service, volunteer and even work these days after school, as that is what she and other books say kids should be able to offer a college. Doubt if many do. The college admindirs also said they can tell when kids start signing up for clubs, etc. in jr and sr year and they tend to discount that. They want to see someone who has a passion for one or two things over 4 years. That makes sense I guess, because if you really love something you do it. He reminded us of the kid that said in his personal essay how he loves helping others and yet had no community service on his resume. </p>
<p>I guess the only time to catch up with the mandatory things are weekends and summers. One parent asked the ivy admindir why it is so competitive these days (especially in the northeastern part of the US) and how does he perceive everyone’s resume as being so “robotic or mechanical?” And does an A in an honors class beat a B in an AP class and he said “you need an A in an AP class as there are so many that can achieve that.” Yuk. And he answered by saying they want diversity in their schools - the farther away you are the better your chances, and people with “jobs” are a big draw. Ah, the good old days! I remember when we walked, trained, bussed to school, then came home, had a part-time job, helped prepare dinner and did clean-up, then our homework, washed and ironed our clothes and started the process all over again. Kids today don’t have time for all that - they are driven everywhere, and just plain tired and burned out. Most look like zombies by junior and senior year, and at least in my daughter’s school, get 3-4 hrs of sleep and are proud of it! Where are the parents???</p>
<p>The woman who wrote the book “what high schools don’t tell you” (and “what colleges don’t tell you”) also had some useful info about summer camps, internships, etc. and she does counseling (don’t know what her qualifications to do so are but she certainly got her boys where she/they wanted to go - ivyies; and she waited until they finished school before writing the books and letting her secrets out). </p>
<p>I think one of the main things a GOOD counselor can do is “package” you - like a resume writer or headhunter? There are things your child might do that YOU or I think are non-competitive or uninteresting, but a good counselor will explore. I like the “How to Make Colleges Want You” book by Mike Moyer. It was enjoyable how he talks about his 2.0 or 2.9 (can’t remember offhand) gpa in a private high school and how he made it into all great schools while his friends who did well didn’t. He had something different they didn’t have - homing pigeons, and he used it to his advantage on his interviews. He talks about having something unique to offer a school. We hear stories all the time about kids who weren’t great students but got in ivyies vs. kids who had perfect SAT scores and perfect AP classes, etc.) that didn’t. There IS no rhyme or reason or formula to getting in as many of the schools will tell you (even though high school counselors will tell you not to bother wasting your time or money applying to certain schools unless you have a 3.9 or 4.0 gpa). The ivy admindir also told us it is contingent on what the colleges need that particular year per the dean’s directive, and then the admindirs go looking for whatever it is (they always give the classic example of the oboe player). You would not believe how many girls in my daughter’s school now who suddenly have started playing oboe and bassoon and hate it. I could never force my child to do something full knowing the college will expect you to play that instrument if you get into their school.</p>
<p>At this point, another thing that matters is the cost of these counselors. There are some in NYC that charge $30,000! It’s gotten insane…but the average cost in the northeast is about $3000-5000/year. And many won’t take you past sophmore year as it is too late to advise you on what classes to take. They say take the hardest classes your school has to offer. In our school, to get into an AP course is nearly impossible. You have to have teacher recs, they calculate all your past grades in that subject and your current grade has to be an A in a regular class or a B+ in an honors and then you have to write a rigorous essay. If you want to study politics or history or social policy in college, for example, an AP US history or AP Gov’t class you would be great on your resume. However, if you had a difficult Euro History teacher the year before, you can forget getting into the AP course. Compare that to someone in another school where anyone can take an AP class without all the pre-reqs or the teachers are less intense, and that’s when all the disparities occur. </p>
<p>The whole process is so stressful (more so for me than my daughter)! She wants to hear nothing about college at this point, and I drive her nuts daily. I feel if we don’t make a move now to find a counselor, then next year (junior year) will be too late, because her school does offer unique courses like Arabic, Greek, Chinese, Italian in addition to the requisite french, spanish and latin, plus tons of interesting electives, and I just don’t know which would be best for her to choose. You can’t unring the bell, and junior year, so they say, counts the most as far as class selection (perhaps I’m reading too much?). You want your child to stand out, so from that perspective I would say a college counselor could be beneficial. I read an article that said some schools are contemplating doing away with senior year (the kids get senioritis), but now a lot of colleges want to see your end of year report card in sr. year too to make sure you don’t slack off and are in difficult courses. They have 2 counselors in our school for a class of 90. It’s not bad, but the counselors really don’t know your child all that well. And as they used to say at the corporation I worked for, no boss will ever get you a job better than the one he has. You wonder if the CC at school will follow that adage. One of the parents told me that in most private schools they have their favorites (high scorers/high contributors) and work best to get them into the top schools. Another “rumor” if you will is, that the top schools take only the top 1% from each school - so why not go to an easy school where you can be tops vs. a difficult one where you might be smarter than the top scorer in an easy school but not in the school you are in?</p>
<p>As for awards, that really stresses me out. In our school, it is usually the same 2 or 3 kids who get the top awards (which start in freshman year - only 1 award that year) and sophmore year, jr and sr you have a shot; but 1 kid could get all 8 awards. So if you don’t get school awards, or outside awards and you don’t have enough AP courses, does that mean you are toast? And how about Suze Orman’s advice that unless your child has a special interest and gets into a good college where they can truly further the development of that career, it isn’t worth going to college and having them incur the debt (she is totally against parents co-signing college loans). Sometimes there is just too much information out there!</p>
<p>My daughter is now considering entering a lot of outside contests, and we are trying to read up on all the different scholarships out there (for example, Italian organizations like the Columbus Citizens foundation, etc.) but they offer small amounts and you have to have studied Italian in high school besides being of Italian descent. The scholarships will take a lot of digging. There are many affluent kids at my daughter’s school, and the irony is they can pay 4 years of tuition now without flinching (we are NOT one of them), and yet they are all pushing their kids to get athletic scholarships (crew, field hockey, lacrosse, basketball, golf) - it simply amazes the heck out of me. </p>
<p>I’m trying to figure out how to start tackling all the different universities and when to schedule visits. My daughter did her SAT’s in 8th grade (school arranged if you were part of JH/CTY), and because we signed up for the college board when she took the SAT’s (I’m assuming that is how they got my daughter’s info), we have been bombarded with universities sending pamphlets, emails, etc. when she isn’t sure of what she wants to study yet. </p>
<p>Also, when does everyone fit in their child’s community service? We certainly can’t do it during the week. They have something at school now called Saturdays in the City where you can accumulate hours. But otherwise that leaves summers. My daughter needs 95 hours to graduate! Then when do you do pre-college programs (in a field of interest), or hold a job and do college visits? Can you tell I’m stressed out? I, for one, if I had the money would welcome a college counselor. I do enjoy reading about the schools and process, but the more I do, the more overwhelmed I feel - like right about now!</p>
<p>It’s now 5-1/2 years since the essay portion of the SAT1 was introduced. Since it’s still being ignored by most schools, I’m wondering when schools are going to start considering the writing portion of the SAT. </p>
<p>As far as kids getting only a few hours of sleep per night, that’s a badge of honor in CC, as well.</p>
<p>^ What makes you think it is “ignored?” Most schools report their data on a 2400-point basis.</p>