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<p>Wouldn’t parents have to pay for living expenses anyway?</p>
<p>Where on earth would parents lving at poverty level get the money to pay room and board for a stuedne, which is what I am including in living expenses. Easily runs $10K a year.</p>
<p>When did going away to a distant college become an entitlement?</p>
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<p>Well, I’m not sure what a “normal average” state flagship is, but Alabama’s student stats are generally in the bottom half of the SEC, a conference not known as an academic powerhouse (except arguably for its lone private member, Vanderbilt).</p>
<p>Here’s where Alabama stacks up in student stats relative to other public universities in the SEC:</p>
<p>School / middle 50% SAT CR+M/ Middle 50% ACT composite</p>
<ol>
<li>Florida 1160-1360/24-30</li>
<li>Georgia 1120-1310/25-30</li>
<li>Auburn 1120-1360/24-30</li>
<li>Texas A&M 1100-1300/24-30</li>
<li>South Carolina 1100-1290/24-29</li>
<li>Tennessee 1050-1280/24-29</li>
<li>Missouri 1050-1300/23-28</li>
<li>LSU 1030-1240/23-28</li>
<li>Arkansas 1020-1240/23-28</li>
<li>Alabama 995-1260/22-29</li>
<li>Kentucky 990-1240/23-28</li>
<li>Mississippi State 970-1235/20-27</li>
<li>Mississippi 930-1180/20-27</li>
</ol>
<p>You can quibble with that ranking depending on whether you go with 75th percentile or 25th percentile–Alabama does have a slightly higher 75th percentile than some schools with otherwise similar stats, but a lower 25% percentile. But in any case I’d say Alabama is in the bottom half of the conference. So again, I’d have to question what Alabama thinks it’s buying with all that merit aid, and at what cost to state residents.</p>
<p>When I put a 0 EFC, I get total grants and scholarships at 6550–all Federal aid. The net price there is a total of 20, 917, so that’s much higher than what’s listed at IPEDS for a family of 0-30K. And then 8,500 dollars in loan. The family has to come up with 7,630. But the institution itself gives nothing.</p>
<p>When I ran the NPC yesterday, I got $10k in grants, so I’m not sure why you got a different amount. And, again, the “net price” is misleading since the COA is highly padded. the family does not have to pay out 7600.</p>
<p>Also, the NPC does not include merit scholarships. With good stats, instate students can get full or partial tuition scholarships as well. You may argue that those without the better stats won’t get that merit, but in some states (like Mich), if you don’t have the better stats, you wouldn’t get accepted to the “full need UMich”. So, it could be argued that their aid has a merit component. </p>
<p>“Going away to school” is not an entitlement. One of the reasons states put in regional universities is so that kids can commute from home. To expect states to fund “room and board” is too much. That would mean that families earning too much for aid, but not enough to afford the “going away” experience would be taxed to pay for other people’s kids to “go away” to school. </p>
<p>Also, it’s not unreasonable to expect students to economize. Getting full aid so that they can buy all brand new books and have fully funded personal expenses is ridiculous when paying families are looking for book bargains, etc.</p>
<p>There should be a high priority to fund these kids who have shown their stripes and who live in an area where they cannot get the major they want or sometimes even any 4 year degree on a commuter basis.</p>
<p>Yes, I can see that if a good student doesn’t live in an area that is within a reasonable distance to a state univ, that extra funding could be justified. A good student may likely get some merit on top of other aid. </p>
<p>But, Cptofthehouse, on many threads you’ve argued against funding room and board at state schools because it becomes like welfare. I’ve agreed with your posts. Funding for tuition, books and fees can be argued, but more than that should come from loans, summer earnings, and work study.</p>
<p>1. Florida 1160-1360/24-30
2. Georgia 1120-1310/25-30
3. Auburn 1120-1360/24-30
4. Texas A&M 1100-1300/24-30
5. South Carolina 1100-1290/24-29
6. Tennessee 1050-1280/24-29
7. Missouri 1050-1300/23-28
8. LSU 1030-1240/23-28
9. Arkansas 1020-1240/23-28
10. Alabama 995-1260/22-29
11. Kentucky 990-1240/23-28
12. Mississippi State 970-1235/20-27
13. Mississippi 930-1180/20-27</p>
<p>BClinton…are you serious? You’re wondering what Bama is buying. Don’t look at the middle quartiles…Bama isn’t buying THOSE students. :rolleyes: Look at the uppper quartile (you do realize that THOSE are the merit scholarship students, right??? lol ).</p>
<p>Bama’s upper quartile is ACT 30+, so it would be similar to your #5&6 (Most Bama kids take the ACT). It’s silly to rank using the lower ACT of the middle quartile. Besides, the wider range of Bama’s middle quartile just shows its commitment to still accept students whose K-12 education wasn’t the best. Bama graduates more AA students than most top 100 universities. Keep in mind this entire country has a test score issue amongst our AA children. The avg ACT score for all of America’s AA children is about a 17. Bama’s AA enrollment is about 12%.</p>
<p>If you’re wondering what Bama has purchased, it’s purchased an increase in the upper quartile. That’s important since simulaneously it has tripled its College of Engineering. Since Bama has recently added an 800,000 sq foot Science and Engineering Complex (bringing STEM academic space to about 1.5M sq ft), it needed higher stats kids in those seats.</p>
<p>
Perhaps it avoids being at the very bottom of the list.</p>
<p>I think the BClintonK’s issue is whether the top quartile kids who go to Alabama STAY in Alabama and work and produce economic benefits for Alabama.</p>
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<p>I don’t think differences in state spending on K-12 education explain much of the differences in test scores. You can’t make the whole country like MA in university concentration, racial mix, or average income.</p>
<p>How states do academically depends in part on their demographics. Massachusetts has a higher fraction of whites and lower fractions of blacks and Hispanics than the rest of the country – see [Massachusetts</a> QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau](<a href=“http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/25000.html]Massachusetts”>http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/25000.html) .</p>
<p>Massachusetts has for centuries had lots of universities that draw many of the brightest people from around the country, and a substantial fraction stay in MA and work in fields such as finance, consulting, information technology, and medicine. Smart people tend to have smart kids, and a state whose economy is more knowledge-based will have higher test scores than one which is based more on agriculture or manufacturing. America probably has a glut rather than a shortage of universities, and future growth in enrollment may be in online rather than residential schools. It would not make sense for other states to create as many universities per capita as MA.</p>
<p>Massachusetts has a high cost of living, as do many other blue states. Young people without BAs who can’t find high-paying jobs are motivated to move to states with a lower cost of living. An easy way to raise test scores is to kick out poor people (not that I approve). Affluent towns accomplish this by keeping house prices high through regulations such as “open space” laws that prevent development.</p>
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<p>I agree with this and have written similar things. A political problem to overcome is that if your measures of scholastic aptitude in 12th grade reveal large racial and SES differences, a policy of only subsidizing the college attendance of academically qualified students has “disparate impact”.</p>
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<p>When discussing our overall education system I think this is worthy of discussion but lets bring it to the U of Alabama example. This is a state’s flagship U that has a strategy of heavily favoring merit aid much (most? vast majoirty?) which goes to OOS students while the best students from Alabama with financial need, on average, get severely gaped (given 15% meet need about 50% OOS then at best 30% of in-state have all need met). Whatever the merits of the quote above I have a hard time with in-state students worthy of the state flagship being gaped while money is diverted to merit scholarships (especially for OOS students)</p>
<p>If a school is “buying” more studnets in the upper quartile, wouldnt that at some point change the range of the scores, assuming enough students are being “bought” to make that statistical shift change?</p>
<p>You’ve apparently got so many low scores at Alabama that even buying say 100 top scores a year from OOS isn’t enough to drag things up.<br>
I’d been telling kids I knew who needed merit money and were decent enough (though not outstanding) students that they might want to look at Alabama, but those scores do give me pause.</p>
<p>Jym -it won’t change the lower 25th percentile.</p>
<p>GMTplus7–I don’t think using other countries as a model for post-secondary education is really the way to go. That would be several steps BACKWARDS for the US. More education is ALWAYS a good idea. Compare the technological, medical and industrial advanced in the US to one of those countries that only lets the top kids go on to college…</p>
<p>As for per pupil spending-NOT a good measure. States with higher per pupil spending usually have the worst schools because they have to put more money into remedial programs and special education. NY and DC come in one and two for per pupil spending–some of the worst public schools in the country. You do have to have ENOUGH thought too and states like AZ and OK are at the low end and their schools are faltering as well. Look to the middle of the road where they have enough to do well, yet don’t have to fund hugely expensive special education programs either–like MA and MN.</p>
<p>“Whatever the merits of the quote above I have a hard time with in-state students worthy of the state flagship being gaped while money is diverted to merit scholarships (especially for OOS students)”</p>
<p>True, but it looks like worthy of the state flagship is a low bar. Who says, though, that the “worthiest” in state students in Alabama are being gapped? The poorest may - but that’s not the same thing.</p>
<p>"How states do academically depends in part on their demographics. Massachusetts has a higher fraction of whites and lower fractions of blacks and Hispanics than the rest of the country – see Massachusetts QuickFacts from the US Census </p>
<p>Yes, we get it, Beliavsky, white people are smarter. We heard you the first 20 times. Poor Alabama, all those black people, the poor sweet dears.</p>
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<p>[High</a> on Crack Street: Lost Lives in Lowell | Watch the Documentary Film Free Online | SnagFilms](<a href=“http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/high_on_crack_street_lost_lives_in_lowell]High”>http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/high_on_crack_street_lost_lives_in_lowell)</p>
<p>So Maine should be the best performing state in the country, right?</p>
<p>“So again, I’d have to question what Alabama thinks it’s buying with all that merit aid . . .”</p>
<p>Uh, I’d say higher median SAT and ACT scores, but that is just a guess.</p>
<p>I do think giving merit aid to out of state students who may not stay in the state after graduating is at the very heart a moral dilemma tied to the mission of the particular state. I do appreciate that Michigan does not give great aid to out of state residents. People have come to Ann Arbor from other regions of the country for decades and decades and UofM is quite clear that they do not meet need for out of state students. There are some scholarships in the truest sense of the word available for some students but there is not a massive need to discount tuition for students coming from other regions. I do question what percentage of those students stay in Michigan and contribute to the intellectual and financial health of the state. Fortunately it’s a minor worry for me since for the most part those students “pay” for the privilege of attending school in the state. And at very minimum it has strengthened the other flagship as resident students displaced by the out of state students in Ann Arbor often simply move over to Michigan State which is an excellent university, better than many other state flagships, often over shadowed by UofM. Also with two flagships one has programs that are simply not available at the other so for some majors there is no cross-over. Political science, journalism & communications, pre-vet, pre-med, physics and a number of majors are arguably and statistically stronger at State. </p>
<p>I would guess at some point the discounting that Alabama is doing to attract top talent from other states may or may not align with the overall mission of the university and the state…at which point that tuition discounting will cease.</p>