<p>Actually, the reason for those advances in the US is due to the strengths of the research faculty and the professional/graduate schools and their students*…many of whom happened to be immigrants or international scholars whose undergrad education took place in their respective nations of origin. </p>
<p>With the exception of a tiny minority of topflight US-based undergrads and some who end up working their way up in their respective industries without further education…some of whom also happen to be immigrants/international students, the vast majority of undergrads aren’t likely to have the academic wherewithal or the inclination to have such a meaningful impact in those areas. </p>
<ul>
<li>This is also a critical factor why academic research/publications tends to be privileged in evaluations for tenure and promotion over undergrad teaching in many research universities, including elite ones.</li>
</ul>
<p>I believe Hunt’s serious, and I agree completely with him. This is precisely what I meant when I said that seeing those scores gives me pause in recommending Alabama to kids in my neck of the woods who were smart but didn’t have money.</p>
<p>PG…you should have posted the rest of my post.</p>
<p>"lol…are you serious? </p>
<p>Do you really think that high stats students are spread evenly across the various majors? Uh, no. High stats students are generally found largely concentrated in about 8-10 majors. Those in the lower quartile aren’t in those majors…or at least not longer than maybe a semester."</p>
<p>The lower quartile and even many/most of the lower half are not going to be found in the harder more challenging majors…at least not for long. The higher stats kids are largely found in Engineering, Physics, Bio, Chem, Math, Business, English, The Classics, Nursing, and a few others that I can’t think of off the top of my head. </p>
<p>Those in the lower quartile or lower half are going to be found largely in either those “less-demanding majors” or they’re in very “right brained” majors where their performing, creative, or artistic talents are very strong, but their standardized test-taking abilities are not. </p>
<p>I have one math son graduated (now in a PhD program), and one ChemE son about to graduate (accepted to med school). They didn’t/don’t have any lowish stats kids in their classes. Those kids can’t pass those classes. Most don’t even bother to attempt those courses/majors. Those that might try usually find that courses like Gen Chem and Physics tend to weed them out pretty fast.</p>
<p>SteveMA, I don’t know the stats on other majors, but take a look at the percentages of interantional students in Engineeriing graduate programs.</p>
<p>Not all top research programs or necessarily most within each respective program…but a critical mass of them. Many topflight faculty in US universities since the 1930’s and after are part of that critical mass whether it’s individuals like Albert Einstein or the large group of topflight immigrant/international intellectuals who founded notable institutions like the New School and strengthened US higher education from the '30s onward. </p>
<p>It’s also been a common complaint among US undergrads regarding supposed Profs/TAs with supposed foreign accents…even when some of those are confirmed to be American-born who are merely foreign-looking. Such complaints were already prevalent when I was in college in the mid-late '90s and from what I’ve heard from those attending various colleges in the '80s, such complaints were also commonplace as well.</p>
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</p>
<p>Business?? Unless you’re talking topflight undergrad b-schools like Wharton, NYU-Stern, Berkeley Haas, etc, I’m not so sure about that.</p>
<p>At most mid-lower-tiered colleges, business* tends to be regarded as a “gut major” for those who don’t really know what they want to do and yet, want a “practical sounding major”. There was even a NYT article and a few in the Chronicle/Inside Higher Ed which referenced this perception. </p>
<p>This was also reflected in my extended family as business was often regarded as the group of majors recommended to the “less intellectually inclined” family members with average-mediocre HS/standardized stats or a disinclination towards academics.</p>
<ul>
<li>Only possible exceptions are those which happen to be quant-heavy and/or requiring a rigorous regulatory exam like accounting.</li>
</ul>
<p>There’s more to college life than just your major classes. Moreover, there are social implications if you’re consistently way, way smarter than the bulk of the kids around you.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl—seriously–“smarter” is relative. Take a kid from a prestigious prep school that had every advantage and scored high on test scores to get him the full ride to Alabama compared to a student from a small, rural school with no AP classes that did ‘ok’ on test scores–what if they are getting the same grades-who really is smarter? You really aren’t suggesting that just because you got a high score on one test that you are smarter than everyone else around you, are you???</p>
<p>No, she is saying that intelligent kids do well to have peers of their own.</p>
<p>The thing about a school the size of Alabama, with its honors program the size of many LACs, is that there are plenty of peers around the bright kids. FWIW</p>
<p>Smarter is relative?? Um, no it isnt. Standardized test scores or GPA do not equate to intelligence. Yes there are ranges of intellectual ability, is that what you mean?</p>
<p>There’s more to college life than just your major classes. Moreover, there are social implications if you’re consistently way, way smarter than the bulk of the kids around you.</p>
<p>Oh, I agree. But I don’t know why you’re calling the lower quartile or even the lower half as the “bulk of the kids around you.” The word “bulk” assumes a majority. Half wouldn’t be a majority. (and test scores aren’t the measure of intelligence.)</p>
<p>When you’re a STEM major, a B-school major or a nursing major, etc, then likely the bulk (not all) of the kids around you are kids that you’ve met in classes, etc. If you’ve chosen honors housing, then the kids who are “around you” are ACT 28+. </p>
<p>Large universities tend to be laid out according to “colleges” and depts. So, when you’re a STEM major, you tend to eat, sleep and go to classes in a certain section of the school. The bulk of the kids around you are going to be rather similar to you. </p>
<p>And when taking Core/GenEd classes, honors kids can opt to take the honors versions.</p>
<p>Trust me. My son was a top student at one of the top high schools in the country. Now at Alabama, he’s still surrounded by plenty of people just as smart as he’s used to. I was a little worried about it, but it turned out needless.</p>
<p>Alabama is just really big, Mom2cK. I’m not sure some posters understand there are enough kids enrolled to make up what would be considered a small urban area by our own US census.</p>
<p>So, they are used to a smaller student body and don’t “get” that the universities are like a big town, in terms of population. I mean, how many freshman are there in the honors dorms there? I find what Alabama is doing rather interesting.</p>
<p>The remaining two paragraphs of my previous message, repeated below, explain why not.
The Wikipedia article on Massachusetts says “sectors vital to the Massachusetts economy include higher education, biotechnology, finance, health care, and tourism”. The article on Maine says “Maine’s industrial outputs consist chiefly of paper, lumber and wood products, electronic equipment, leather products, food products, textiles, and bio-technology.” The residents of the first state will be a little smarter on average and have smarter children than the residents of the second.</p>
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That apparently works at Alabama, not so much at some other schools. I have heard from parents of a few students at UConn who found the honors program to be a problem. The honors sections of their general education classes either conflicted with classes they needed for their majors, or filled so fast they could get spaces. To get sophomore honors designation, they have to have 16 credits of honors courses by the end of their 4th semester - sometimes hard to do if they’re blocked out of classes. It’s not so hard for honors in their major at graduation, but by the time they’re focusing on their major, they’re already in classes where those who won’t make the cut have been weeded out.</p>
<p>Also, not all schools offer the same type of honors housing as you find at Alabama. D applied to Alabama because we have been impressed by what they offer. We’re not sure if she will take them up on their offer, because she does not plan to be in one of the stronger majors - she’s interested in Anthropology, and if Yale comes through it’s probably her best option even at a slightly higher price (though not much, because of the way they calculate need).</p>
<p>My high achiever is a senior at Pitt, which was mentioned much higher in the thread. Early on, she told me that she did not think she was as smart as I thought she was. Haha. Could that be possible? Anyway, she felt as though her math, engineering, language classes were challenging, but did not find the gen-ed classes particularly mind-numbing.</p>
<p>About honors classes, at Pitt, DD felt as though they were just more work, so she was not drawn to too many of them. She had too many requirements for the other things she wanted to do.</p>
<p>A reason for using general college funds to fund merit scholarships is that attending classes and living with excellent students benefits the other students. If the students with merit scholarships are living in separate housing and taking classes only with other such students, this justification for merit scholarships funded from general revenues disappears.</p>
<p>Yes, but your first section focused on race.</p>
<p>I posted a link to a video documentary on crack addiction in Lowell, MA. All of main people in the video are white. Hispanic + African American make up 24% of the population. You could look at Springfield, New Bedford or various other cities in the state. There are areas with financial and education problems where the majority isn’t black and hispanic.</p>
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<p>I grew up here and live in the area so I know what goes on in MA. MA’s population would be declining if it weren’t for its colleges and universities and foreign immigration. Families have been leaving for various other parts of the country like the Southeast (and even to New Hampshire) due to the high cost of living. There are a lot of blue-collar workers, though, that do reasonably well, and in some cases, very well.</p>
<p>NH is similar to MA in terms of education, median household income but demographics and education spending and the availability of universities are quite different. NH doesn’t spend much on education while it’s a major priority in MA. My personal feeling is that the quality of education in NH is declining but those in wealthy districts can compensate for that with more local spending.</p>
<p>*Alabama is just really big, Mom2cK. I’m not sure some posters understand there are enough kids enrolled to make up what would be considered a small urban area by our own US census.</p>
<p>So, they are used to a smaller student body and don’t “get” that the universities are like a big town, in terms of population. I mean, how many freshman are there in the honors dorms there? I find what Alabama is doing rather interesting.*</p>
<p>Freshman in honors dorms? Probably about 1,000. Not all honors frosh opt to be in honors housing. </p>
<p>Yes, I can see that those who are used to smaller schools might have a harder time understanding. It is like a small city consisting of people of the college age group. Somehow they think that a high stats kid is somehow rare. The frosh class is over 6000.</p>
<p>If the students with merit scholarships are living in separate housing and taking classes only with other such students, this justification for merit scholarships funded from general revenues disappears</p>
<p>At Bama, honors students aren’t just taking honors classes. A large number of courses don’t really need an honors version. And, most upper division courses aren’t honors because once kids are in their upper division courses, they’re on a path that works with their strengths. Bama doesn’t need to offer “honors Topology” or “honors Real Analysis” or “Honors Boundary Value Problems.”</p>