<p>Oh Simba, there was plenty of celebration in our home. However, nothing compares to UT's display of joy. </p>
<p>That is a sight to be seen! Truly Texan.</p>
<p>xiggi~</p>
<p>Awwwwwwwwww, thanks for that link! Awesome, huh? Makes me so homesick! ~berurah</p>
<p>The original post mentions three colleges and ironically my two kids are at two of them....Brown and NYU. Expensive? YEAH. People are talking about if it is "worth it". I never have thought of it in those terms really. I'm not saying these schools are better than others and you certainly can get a fine education for less. Also, we NEVER looked at colleges as a "ticket" to some better paying job....never entered the mind. Great careers can come out of any school. The person achieves success, not the school from where she came. However, we did not look at the price tag of the schools when picking schools. We wanted our kids to go to any college that fit what they wanted in a college without restriction. This was important to us. So as far as price? I guess I'll call THAT priceless. Education is important to us and we may be paying it off forever but that's how we approached it. I'm not saying this is for everyone but merely is for us. Our parents gave us opportunities and we have passed that onto our children. I'm not aiming at high paying jobs or anything like that upon their graduation. Afterall, my own field is education, clearly a low paying field, yet I was given the opportunity to attend Harvard for graduate school and loved it and am appreciative of the experience my parents afforded me. I have one kid going into architecture (will require 2-3 years of graduate school) and one going into Musical Theater, clearly an uncertain and not a high income field. I don't care WHAT field they puruse as long as they pursue their interests. </p>
<p>Brown and NYU are very expensive. Older D (the Brown student) turned down merit aid at schools not as high on her preference list, including a full ride to the Honors college at our state U. The price tags at Brown and at NYU are high but my younger D (NYU//Tisch) has a substantial merit and need scholarship at NYU and my older D is now getting substantial grants from Brown given that we have two in college...so the price tag is really not the 48K or so at NYU or the 46K or so at Brown. We do have substantial loans as well and I know others are not willing to take those on but for us, it IS worth it. I'd have said that no matter which school they had chosen.</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>
[quote]
People are talking about if it is "worth it". I never have thought of it in those terms really.
Also, we NEVER looked at colleges as a "ticket" to some better paying job....never entered the mind.
[/quote]
Susan~</p>
<p>It is such a fabulous thing that your girls have each been able to achieve their educational dreams in terms of their chosen colleges. Please remember, though, that it is an absolute LUXURY to be able to NOT consider the above when choosing a college. There is, IMHO, nothing wrong with looking at the merits of a college in terms of its "worth" or its unique ability to provide a stepping stone to success in a given career. Are you really, truly trying to say that your younger D did not choose Tisch with at least some mind toward its unique and esteemed position within the wider MT community and the connections she could foster there? C'mon. </p>
<p>People like us MUST consider these things. It would be foolish of us NOT to given that we have SIX kids heading off to college. We do not have the luxury of looking at our children and saying, "Here's the college candy store...take your pick!" In the perfect world, we would, but in the reality of OUR world, we simply cannot. That doesn't mean that we view education in an inferior way...it just means that our given situation forces us into more difficult choices than yours does you.</p>
<p>We were lucky. Our son's "dream school" went on "sale" for us. But if it hadn't, he would have had to attend elsewhere, not because we didn't WANT for him to get exactly what he wanted, but rather because real life dictates that you CAN'T always get it. Remember the Rolling Stones? <em>lol</em></p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>I understand your point, Berurah. Just sharing our approach but admitting it is not for everyone. First of all, to be clear, I cannot afford these schools and my children are on financial aid. We still approached it this way. Of course, I just have two kids and you have six, very different on that one thing there! </p>
<p>What I was saying is that some people talk of going to a more "prestigious" college in terms of perhaps a ticket to a "better" future or "better" paying job and that was NOT how my kids saw it. They wanted more challenging colleges because those were better "fits" with who they are in terms of motivation and enjoyment of challenging learning environments. Prestige was not the big factor. It was not as if prestige meant something better in terms of later career success. Sure, they wanted to go to a "good college". They had worked hard and wanted that type of school and are less satisfied in learning environments that are not challenging or don't have motivated student bodies. So, yes, they wanted "selective" schools, just like they wanted Honors classes at our HS. It just was not thought of so much as some ticket that was better than less selective schools in terms of future potential/success/income. But sure, they wanted a really good school or a really good program in the case of the BFA daughter. I feel they could have been happy at many different schools, not just one, and also did not care which school they picked. It did not HAVE to be one particular school but we did let them choose a favorite, regardless of the tuition. Yes, we do have to take out hefty loans for them. Luckily they received scholarships or grants too, though we still would have let them go without those but those help a GREAT deal. It may sound crazy and I understand that. Others who choose more with price tag in mind I realize ALSO want what is best for their child or to have the child attend the school they really want. There are also families not willing to undertake loans like we have as well. It doesn't mean we can better afford it then everyone else...after all, my kids are on aid but I am just saying that we still opted to go with whichever school they wanted to attend. Not everyone can do that, I SURELY realize. Some CAN do that and be in debt like we are but opt not to and/or some do not think it is "worth" it. We just had a different approach. We felt our children had done their part to get to where they did and we would do anything to make that happen regardless of any hardship it may cause. Perhaps it is not wise and surely not for everyone and maybe it is just a value, but simply sharing what we did. </p>
<p>But we did not see their colleges through a lense as to which one would insure them more success in their careers. I truly believe that kids can be successful no matter where they attended college. I'm more into the "fit" issue and if "challenge" is a factor that some kids crave, then a selective school fits them. Naturally students want to go to a good school...they worked hard to get there, why not. I'm saying that their choice of school was not based on prestige that much but more on fit. For instance, D1 got into PENN as a Ben Franklin Scholar but when it came to narrowing down to three to consider in April, she was no longer considering Penn but two Non Ivies "lower in ranking" that she liked better. However, she still wanted a challenging selective "good" school. Not sure if that explains it right or not. For D2, she also wanted to go to a very good or selective program but picked NYU (and had one other school tied for first choice in her mind that she was not accepted to) because of it fit other criteria she had in a BFA program....for instance, it had some liberal arts in a challenging setting and not that many BFA programs do. She'd have been happy to have attended other schools on her list, I'm sure of it. This one fit. I'm not immune to the fact that more reknowned colleges or programs can sometimes take you places. Going to a "very good" school DID factor in but fit took major precedence. Part of "fit" was that they prefer challenge and the kinds of students who also tend to be in that kind of student body. Not sure if that makes sense but I know what they were after. We did give them full reign to choose where they wanted to go and not because we can afford it but because we will go out on a limb for years to make it happen even if that is not the right course for others. I know it is not realistic of all people and in some cases, even if they could go in debt to make it happen for their kids, they opt not to or do not feel it is worth it. I understand that approach as well. It just wasn't ours. We may be nuts but that is how we approached their college educations. We got to have this ourselves and so we want to let our kids do the same and will just have to find a way to make it work out. This is surely not meant to say that others do not WANT the same for their kids but just saying the choices WE made, whether we can afford it or not.
Susan</p>
<p>PS...I should add that while this was not the reason for the final school choice, NYU gave my younger D her biggest merit scholarship of all her schools, practically cutting the price tag in half. So, it worked out that way inadvertantly anyway.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that few students and their families pay the sticker price and if called upon to do so, can somehow afford the luxury. I know we would have been in that position as our EFC was $80k+.</p>
<p>However, we as a family decided to give our son free reign in his choice of college with one restriction-he would be responsible for 4 years tuition. Thats a biggie, I know but it accomplished several important things. It reduced stress on our retirement savings. It reinforced our ethic, that no person should feel a sense of entiltlement in life. Gifts are a combination of hard work and a blessing from God. It gave our son real ownership in his life after high school and his education. Finally, it required him to carefully figure out how he would be able to attend college financially and sent him on a year long "quest" for merit aid. It was hard work but in the end an undeniable valuable experience.</p>
<p>In the end he cut his cost from $120,000 to $20,000. Sadly{;-)}, our $40,000 remains the same.</p>
<p>Will he have the same "career trajectory" following graduation? If you believe the research of Dale and Kreuger, the answer is yes.</p>
<p>Originaloog, isn't it fair to assume that having free REINS to select a school, as long as the student pays for it, is not exactly a reality for most? The current theory of financial aid in college is that the responsibility of paying for the education starts and ends with the ... parents. That is why students are called dependents! </p>
<p>Abdicating this responsibility to 17 and 18 years old has little to do with ethics and false notions of entitlement. One of the reasons many parents agonize over meeting their obligations -even if it creates huge amounts of debt and more modest lifestyles- is that they may want to be different from their parents who gave their children similar early financial emancipation with greater regularity than the current baby boomers. </p>
<p>Looking from the other direction, you can also safely assume that most children would prefer to bear a higher burden and not create the added strain in their parents' budgets. The biggest issue is that it is not sufficient to WANT it ... it has to be feasible. Given the choice, most students I know would "follow the money" if it was possible. </p>
<p>And like it or not, most students are not really prepared to deal with the financial requirements of attending school without parental help. That's why the number of dropouts is that huge among low SES groups.</p>
<p>Xiggi, I am NOT suggesting that our approach is one to be recommended for any other student or family. It was merely our approach. One little DETAIL I omitted is that he we had set aside about $78,000 in a trust account for him to use as he wished. That account I might add came primarily from us and a $7500 gift from his grandmother. I am sorroy about that omission.</p>
<p>However that left him with some choices to make. He could have chosen to apply to my alma mater(Cornell) for instance and fund the difference with loans, work, etc. He chose to go the merit scholarship and applied to Rensselaer, Case, Oberlin and a few other LAC's.</p>
<p>Was this a compromise on his part? Perhaps. But he is as happy as a clam at RPI and will finish with about $50,000 in his account come May, 2008.</p>
<p>Again, it was our family's approach to the $200,000 challenge families are grappling with. If you want to use a completely opposite approach, it is perfectly fine with me.</p>
<p>BTW, just to demonstrate the I am not a complete Scrooge, he is living off campus this year and saving about $4200(he is paying $400/month for food, rent, utilities, internet, tele/cable tv with 10 other guys) and we are putting that savings toward his term bills.</p>
<p>"Sorry for the confusion, i am talking about UGA."</p>
<p>Okay, thanks for the clarification, ryan.</p>
<p>Originaloog, I was not judging you and your family's decision. No one can judge another family because all circumstances are different. I apologize if my post sounded accusatory in any way or shape. It was not my intention. </p>
<p>My main issue was to point out that, for the majority of students, it would be impossible to navigate the four years of college without outside help. Even students on full scholarships face a difficult battle. I can only imagine how hard it must be for large families with limited resources to cover the EFC, as well as a number of unaccounted expenses such as extraordinary travel, insurance, medical bills, or unexpected fees. Students face a number of Catch-22 and are not always able to "work" their way through the system. </p>
<p>Lastly, chasing merit aid is not as easy as purported to be. There are many more candidates than lucky winners and the competition is fierce. It is not impossible, but landing substantial aid requires years of preparation, great scores, hard work to find and pursue the opportunities, and mainly a healthy dosis of ... luck.</p>
<p>No problem xiggi! Because it is on topic, our DS's experience with merit aid demonstrated to our family that it is quite readily available if you do your research. He did not go after any independent scholarships, but only ones offered by the colleges themselves.</p>
<p>He did his research and received merit awards ranging from $14,000/yr to $25,000/yr to every college he applied to with the exception of Oberlin(whose offer was miniscule-he just loved his visit there and had to apply) and our flagship university whose merit offer brought the tuition down to about $5000/yr.</p>
<p>His criteria were to find colleges which identified substantial merit scholarships on their web sited and whose USNews SAT scores placed him in the top quartile of the previous years class. He did need to ask for a letter of recommendation from our pastor to compete for a scholarship designated for members of the Presbyterian Church-USA. He also needed to begin the process very early, junior year, because some scholarships are awarded that early, the Rensselaer Medal in particular. For that he met with his guidance counselor and told him that RPI was high on his list(mom is an alum) and the he was definitely applying there. He wasnt the top math/science student in his class but probably in the top 5 or 10. He thinks Furman(another college he researched) has a similar scholarship awarded jr year. </p>
<p>What this quest for merit scholarship meant for him was that he did not apply to any so called reach colleges. That was the compromise he accepted. Some students and/or their families would not choose to make this choice which again is fine with me. The compromise they make is the willingness to pay a higher portion of that $200,000 sticker price. </p>
<p>And yes, being in a position to compete for substantial merit aid does take hard work to achieve prerequisite academic achievement. But no more so than that required to compete for admission to the top 25 colleges, but those offer little or no merit aid anyhow. </p>
<p>Finally families need to understand that there are tremendous amounts of merit scholarship money out there and the competition for it is not very fierce if the applicant is in the top 25% of the applicant pool. Colleges want these students and are willing to pay for the opportunity to lure them there. </p>
<p>In the end our DS received the highest merit offers from RPI and Case. Because he was not a competetive applicant for the most selective colleges, there was very little to be sacrificed in terms of perceived academic environment. The upside is that while he is challenged in the classroom, his 3rd semester grade report placed him in the top 18% of his class. Not a big deal for the students of many posters here but something we are very grateful about.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Not a big deal for the students of many posters here but something we are very grateful about.
[/quote]
originaloog~</p>
<p>Well, that is a BIG DEAL to ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How awesome for your son!! Congrats to him for his great academic performance so far!!!</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Originaloog:</p>
<p>Do you have any pointers for finding these schools? I havea junior, so not SATs yet, but I predict 1300-1400 (old test) and doing fine on the essay (650-750)</p>
<p>She does not have a strong pull for any particular school, but is pretty sure she wants a private. She is less concerned with prestige than with being in a good place with a good fit. </p>
<p>How did you find the schools your son chose?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Here is what our son did, though it took a lot of work and research. His first screen was to look at the USNew data and screen out any colleges where he was not in the top quartile of SAT scores. Next he looked at those remaining and did the typical screening-geography, size, majors offered, setting(urban, rural,etc), etc. For LAC's he used the F&M study which tracks the number of its students achieving a PhD which he felt was a reasonable objective measure of academic quality.</p>
<p>Finally he did his research finding merit scholarship possibilities. His guidence counselor was a help and he also searched out info on the colleges' web sites. At that time there was not a merit scholarship master list as was recently posted right here in the parents forum. Your student should look at in for valuable info. </p>
<p>I suspect he spent several hundred hours over the course of a couple of years. However that work translated into about $370,000 in merit scholarship offers and $100,000 from Rensselaer where he is attending.</p>
<p>As I posted before the RPI Medal worth $15k/yr is awarded by designated hs's during a students junior year. If you student has an interest in engineering or science AND genuinely interested in RPI, have him make a pitch to his HS after determining that it is a designated HS(see the link)</p>
<p>He may have done several other things that I am not aware of during his search, but I think I noted the major ones. We also visited most of the colleges on his final list. FYI they included RPI, RIT<em>, Rochester</em>, state university, Allegheny, Wooster, Case, and Oberlin.(*-didnt apply to). He had a free application to Ohio Wesleyan and applied w/o a visit and was offered a $15k/yr merit scholarship.</p>
<p>Here is a link to the Furman University site concerning the merit scholarship determine in a student's junior year of hs.
<a href="http://www.engagefurman.com/index.asp?id=290%5B/url%5D">http://www.engagefurman.com/index.asp?id=290</a></p>
<p>Thats about all the advice I can offer about our son's approach. Good luck to y'all.</p>
<p>Our search was relatively similar to yours, except that my d. was competitive vritually everywhere, and very particular about meeting with the profs with whom she would be studying (a very small major.) The result for us is a bill for four years way under $40k, and my d. will graduate (we think) without a single penny in loans (which is good, because she is looking at low-income occupations, or grad. school.)</p>
<p>There are many different ways to approach college costs, but none of them is the right way. The decision that each family makes comes from their own unique set of values. </p>
<p>My family approaches college similar to soozievt (and the fact that we are both in Vermont is, I think, irrelevant). My husband and I have been saving for college ever since our daughter was born, and we made sacrifices in other areas of our life to add to that savings account. Were lucky that we are able to do that but we were also guided by our belief that a quality education is key that is one of our most important values. The sticker price is not that shocking to us because weve been paying attention to college costs for years, and preparing for them.</p>
<p>The value of a college education can be measured in more than one way. Some people measure it by what job they will get when they graduate. Some measure it by the intangibles that they experience during those four years interactions with students, professors, etc. I put heavy weight on those intangibles, because, as I think someone else said, you can end up with the same job whether you go to the state school or an Ivy. </p>
<p>This discussion reminds me of a friend of mine 30 years ago, who turned down a private school for a state school because her family couldnt afford a private school. Yet, her family could afford to take an expensive two-week cruise every winter. Her family had different values than me, and so made different life decisions.</p>
<p>I'm going to be politically incorrect here. I think there's a difference between males and females. I think it's MORE important for females to go to a "reach" school than it is for males to do so. Why?</p>
<p>The little research available on this topic indicates that in the aggregate males do well academically when they are at or near the "top of the heap" in terms of their stats in the incoming class; females in the aggregate do NOT. The one "popular" magazine I've seen say this in print is the Newsweek/Kaplan guide to colleges a few years back. </p>
<p>I've put in the term "in the aggregate" because I'm sure there are exceptions. But in general, there's a difference.</p>
<p>I think this is partly for social reasons. Even in the year 2006, there's a huge difference socially between being the guy on campus who is regarded as a brainiac and the female who is. I also think that females USUALLY are more impacted by the desire to fit in socially. Moreover, it's still more acceptable for males to date someone less intelligent than they are than it is for females to do the same. Now, I'd be the FIRST to admit that SATs and gpa's do not measure IQ. However, I also think that if you send your D off to a college at which she is offered a huge chunk of merit $$--and this from a college where only a small percentage of incoming students are offered it; not some place where half the student body is--the odds are high that most of the guys on campus are not as smart. </p>
<p>Many females are happier when they are NOT at the top of the heap. MANY smart girls HATE high school and are social misfits. If they go to a "reach" school, it's heaven on earth because for the first time in their lives they aren't "weird" or nerds. </p>
<p>At the most selective schools, it's more likely that having a 4.0 will be seen as being a good thing. It's also more likely, IMO, that females who have high aspirations won't be seen as odd. Yes, I know that many state schools have wonderful honors programs--but the difference in that at at the most selective schools, all the students your kid interacts with outside class, in ECs, in dorms, in the cafeteria, etc., won't see your D as odd either. </p>
<p>To me, that was worth the sticker price. Now please understand that I'm NOT saying either that (1) this is true for all females or (2) that it's a disaster if your D will be in the top 25% of the incoming class stats wise. I'm saying that there are SOME females--and my D is one--who would put their lights under a bushel to "fit in." There are others who won't, but will be miserable and unhappy because being true to themselves is socially awkward. And for the parents of Ds who fit in these groups, those factors should be considered in choosing merit aid.</p>
<p>sly,
You do have a good point that families decide how to use limited resources differently. There would be those who say that having family adventures and making memories are worth it, others choose to scrimp and save for that dream college. When we looked at it as a value analysis, we asked ourselves at what college do we get the best bang for our buck. Alot of this depended on generosity (or lack of it) with financial aid. I have no doubt that the expensive private school has some benefits over the public school, but HOW much. Is is worth $5K more annually? $15K more? $30K more? What else could we do with the extra $120K in the long run? It's really an individual decision.</p>
<p>Jonri, that is an interesting point. It reminds me of when I went to college (in the old days, of course). Back then, I went to a public high school that was very big. I was in all the hardest classes and a very good student. It really was not "cool" to be smart. I recall most of my friends were the more "popular" kids but that they were not usually in my actual classes. The kids in my classes were considered more "nerds" though not sure that was the term. Then, when I got to college, a selective one, the thing that struck me all of a sudden was here are all these smart kids and they are ALSO cool. There was no longer this dichotomy between "smart" and "cool". You could be smart, interesting, socialable, have fun, etc. It was nothing like high school. Being smart and being a girl as well, was cool and NORMAL there. I liked being with other smart kids and they weren't considered "different" or "unpopular" any longer. </p>
<p>Fast forward to my own kids. They also like to be with other smart kids. One thing I noticed in their high school is that the break down of who can be "popular" or not is not quite like it was at my high school. I don't think smart kids or girls were frowned upon as much and many were in sports and many were "popular" as well. I don't know if this is a sign of the times or just their particular small rural school. In some ways, the "groupings" were more broken down by kids who were college bound (who still could be "cool" or "popular") and kids who were never going to go to college and were not in the same classes. Anyway, now my kids are at selective colleges. One is at an Ivy and I think she really wanted and likes the stimulation of being around other bright kids who are also socialable and fun loving. Certainly being a smart girl there is cool and good. And yes, I think for a girl, they do well with boys more on their own "level" so to speak. They don't have to play dumb and they are respected as being smart. </p>
<p>Susan</p>