<p>Rising senior S wants engineering (probably EE or ChemE). We are fortunate to have a state U commonly seen as top 10, if not top 5, in all or nearly all engineering disciplines. S also looking at a couple top ranked (highly highly competitive) private engineering schools (part of larger Us, i.e., not MIT type). S probably a solid admit at the state U and in the mix at the privates. Cost at public U approximately 1/2 of cost of private U. Our existing college savings would fully cover cost of public school. Can cover private school cost if admitted (unlikely to receive aid), but are typical CC family ("non-Rockefellers"), so some sacrifices involved if go the private route. S career path more likely to be business/industrial based, rather than academic or professional school. My question is whether there is a "pay-off" from the added cost of the private school for an engineer heading in those directions. I am not looking to a mathmatical or financial analysis (where the assumptions made drive the result), but rather a more subjective, or anecdotal, sense of the value of the elite private engineering school name and education versus a very highly regarded public engineering school. And my forum name notwithstanding, I am not in any sense biased against the privates. If S wants that route (and there is another factor, athletics, in the mix), we will fully support him. I just don't want to be financially stupid on the one hand, or short-sighted about it on the other, if the opportunities arise.</p>
<p>If he's going straight to industry, there is probably little if any upside to the private school. In fact, he will probably get more job offers from the state U, simply because many of the employers know it, have been there themselves, and know how to value it. Many engineering firms are headed by state U grads, and like to hire from the old school. Ask any Aggie.</p>
<p>If you mean industry, as in he wants to be a rank and file engineer, the public is fine. If you mean business as in he hopes to run a company some day, that's when you may want to consider the elites. I will be bashed and told you can become a CEO going to any college, and while true, your chances in senior management are improved with a resume that includes an elite school.</p>
<p>Here's my experience, which is all I know about:</p>
<p>I graduated with an engineering degree from Cornell. Went to work at a large engineering firm. Most of the engineers at that firm were graduates of state universities. There was no advantage given to me over them on the job once I got there. Most of the senior management at that firm went to a local state university with a great engineering reputation.</p>
<p>These people got the same job that I did, and I had no advantage over them once I got the job.</p>
<p>My undergraduate experience undoubtedly differed from theirs in many ways, but it's impossible for me to determine whether my educational experience was demonstrably better. The engineering part of my education was probably indistinguishable from theirs.</p>
<p>Over the course of my work life I've had a number of jobs, and in most of them the people I reported to went to "worse" colleges than I did. Didn't seem to stop them from telling me what to do.</p>
<p>I think an MBA, AFTER you go to work as an engineer (let the company pay for it) is more likely to get you up the management tree than an elite undergrad degree. All said and done, your performance and apptitude will dictate your advancement.</p>
<p>I'd agree that once you're out the name of the school isn't going to matter much if you stay in engineering. Engineering programs are ABET-acredited and you'll learn the same things no matter where you go. At a top school (public or private) you'll go more into depth than the ABET min requirements and employers know that.</p>
<p>However there are 2 reasons to consider the private school. At publics the classes tend to be large, especially in the intro level. The "prof" can lecture 3x a week in a class with 100-200 students, then you meet once a week with a TA, and the TA is accessible during office hours. If you run into trouble you may get more personal attention/help at the private. Most Phd students in engineering are foreign-born, BTW, and I don't want to be accused of zenophobia but there are TAs who basically do not speak anything that can be understood as english.</p>
<p>The 2nd reason is for plan B; what do you do if you decide not to major in engineering? If your state school is highly regarded in other areas (Berkeley, etc) this may not be a problem. Its worth giving this a LOT of thought since stats show between 1/2 and 2/3 of all students entering college as engineering majors switch (see <a href="http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=45200041%5B/url%5D">http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=45200041</a>, for example)</p>
<p>I was an engineering undergrad at two different large state universities (University of Virginia & University of Florida (transferred after freshman year for financial reasons)) and did grad work through PhD at MIT, and I also was a faculty member at Michigan (which sounds comparable to the school you are considering for your son). My own opinion is that IF your son is extremely well-motivated, then which school he attends does not make that much of a difference. However, most students are at least somewhat affected by peer pressure. If you think your son MIGHT want to pursue grad school and you would want him to be encouraged in that regard, then I would opt for the private school. While in grad school, I was a graduate resident at MIT, living in an undergrad dorm and being responsible for about 45 students on the floor, for about 3 years. I found the top students at MIT to know their material about as well as the top students at UVa or UF (median and average were obviously much higher at MIT). Biggest difference: peer pressure due to where your graduating friends are thinking of going after graduation. At MIT, many of the graduates were considering going to grad school at MIT, Berkeley, Stanford, etc. At University of Florida (where I received my BS) only a very small percentage of my colleagues were pursuing grad school, and fewer still were interested in the top grad schools. At Michigan, a significant number of the students were considering grad school, but fewer than at MIT and primarily at schools a rung down. For the grads at MIT, Michigan was typically the backup school for grad school. In terms of the actual material you learn, there is not that much of a difference. When I entered grad school, I was definitely just as prepared as any student entering MIT, and I never had any academic difficulties. </p>
<p>I never found large lecture courses combined with TA discussion sections to be a minus, and I do not think you can easily avoid them. However, mikemac's comment that TAs may not speak english that well may be a factor. In my academic studies and in my job search (I interviewed with and was offered a faculty job at Penn State, Georgia Tech and Maryland) I found that the percentage of foreign grad students was not necessarily a function of ranking as much as the English-speaking ability of the grad students who were there. In other words, as you go down in ranking, there are many more grad students whose English speaking skills are poor.</p>
<p>From what I can gather in my experiences, the school you attend does not have that much affect on your starting salary. It does, however, appear to have a signifcaint effect on the required GPA to get into various grad schools (including med school, law school, etc.).</p>
<p>My advice to others has always been that if money is no object, then go to the best college you can get into. But for me (I left academia and I now fiddle around as a consultant, where I enjoy my work immensely and make a good but not great income), my oldest son was able to obtain a full tuition scholarship to USC and my 15 year old daughter will start college in fall 2006, likely attending in-state university (because I can tell she will very likely graduate college with close to 4.0 GPA and will not have a problem getting into med school). Hence, in lieu of peer pressure, I have just influenced my kids directly to recognize the rewards of grad school. </p>
<p>I only have finite resources, and I am hoping to use them to help defray grad school costs for my kids.</p>
<p>"S career path more likely to be business/industrial based, rather than academic or professional school. "</p>
<p>My previous post was possibly more relevant for someone who is likely interested in grad/professional school, but I would advise for many engineering undergrads that a Master's degree is a very good financial decision, especially if you can finish it quickly and obtain funding for it through the school (as a TA, research assistant, etc.) This makes a BIG difference in starting salary that will follow you throughout your working years. Therefore, even if your son will likely ultimately go into industry or business, if he has the ability to get the MS, I would recommend it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
but I would advise for many engineering undergrads that a Master's degree is a very good financial decision
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I'd agree, but with a few caveats. Schoolwork is not the same as the career, and this holds in engineering as well as many other fields. So it is vital to get real-world experience thru internships and coops to make sure engineering is what you want to do. Especially if you're thinking of investing the extra year or two for a MS. A second reason is determining which particular area you want to pursue. An EE education is quite broad so its worth exploring career areas (VLSI, analog, signal integrity, power, etc) before entering a MS program which are much more specialized.</p>
<p>As for the MS, many schools are now offering a 5-year program in which you get both a BS and MS. With the caveat above of exploring the career before finishing, I think this is a good idea. Another option is the part-time MS. On the west coast Stanford offers this, and I'd imagine other schools do too. You take 1 or 2 classes a quarter thru telecourses, the same courses the full-time students are taking. You get the same degree they do (it isn't stamped "part-time" or anything). The downside is you're going to spend most of your free time for 2-3 years doing the coursework. The upside, though, is that most employers will pay for 100% of the program.</p>
<p>I've seen a huge difference in the quality of the engineering education at UWashington (our local public, where many of S's friend's go) and MIT (where S goes). In addition, UW seems to wash a lot of kids out of engineering. S points out that many of his friends who thought they were interested in engineering have changed to non-engineering majors.</p>
<p>Anecdotally - I went to a small private and a friend went to the State U. Our experiences were night and day. My professors would work with me if I had a question; Xerox material if I had to miss class; my advisor worked with us very closely; other professors helped me out with career options. I told that to my friend, who was amazed - he had TAs teaching classes, professors would could barely speak English, professors who were apathetic to student success; you name it. He would ask for help and not get any help - they would not try to work with him to get him to understand the material and work through whatever mental tangle waws there. End result: I loved my education and felt that it was four years of my life that I would love to do over again, the exact same way. He felt as if he wasted a lot of his life and sees the engineering education as useless - feels that he could have learned more with an apprentice-ship type system.</p>
<p>I have never heard of TAs teaching courses (unless you count a lab or a recitation section). This would not apply to the better state universities the OP mentioned.</p>
<p>Everyone's experience is different. I went to a large state university (University of Florida), but the chairman of my department took me and two other of the top students in our department out to dinner every Thursday night for six months to discuss our graduate school plans, etc. I do not know how many students at private engineering schools were that fortunate. I just happened to have an excellent chairman (who has, unfortunately, passed away).</p>
<p>Comparing the experiences of two different students at two different colleges is certainly insufficient to make accurate generalizations.</p>
<p>dmd77's mentioning of UWashington washing students out of engineering is consistent with my experience. Students do actually flunk out of state universities. At MIT, I knew a number of students who transfered out of EE or CS and ended up majoring in management (I also knew some very bright students who majored in management because they wanted to) because they could not maintain respectable GPA's, but I did not know of any students who received worse than C's in their courses, even if they had not grasped the fundamentals (according to their responses when I tried to tutor them).</p>
<p>I agree with mikemac, co-op experience is invaluable and has more impact on starting salary at our company than an MS does. We count every week of co-op experience as real experience. If a kid co-ops for 4 years, he starts as a 2 year experienced engineer in salary.</p>
<p>Living in Seattle, I hear very little about Udub's engineering which is odd because they are generally very good at blowing their own horn. I'd say it is suspect.</p>
<p>Thanks to all responders (including PMs) to date - your observations have been very helpful.</p>
<p>pafather: I'll just point out that very few students get less than C's at MIT because MIT allows students to drop a course until the week before finals. If the student isn't getting a C or better, they drop. As for your observation that they got a C and then still required tutoring, perhaps they came for tutoring because they knew a specific area was weak?</p>
<p>PAFather - I believe the first word of my post was "anecdotally."</p>
<p>I do not want to hijack the original poster's thread but I am also finding myself in a similar situation. </p>
<p>I am a rising junior and very interested in math and science. I would like to go into engineering, but I want to go somewhere with pretty good scholarships because my parents are paying for my undergrad education. If I do the dual enrollment program in Washington I will enter U-Washington right after high school as a junior. However, I have also been looking at small private schools such as Olin College of Engineering and Cooper Union. I love the small feel of these colleges and the full tuition scholarships. Basically, I would like to know if anybody knows of anymore engineering colleges that have full tuition scholarships, and if they would be worth going to over UW?</p>