@dstark, I like you too And no, I don’t care where your kids went to school, nor the kid down the street. My kids have attended a community college, Rutgers, Boston College, Yale, and one hopes to be accepted at RISD. I of course love them equally. The schools they attend are of no consequence in my regard for them.
Perhaps I was overly affected by one brief moment, which I recounted in another thread long ago.
Maybe it was an over-reaction; perhaps I misinterpreted. Nevertheless, I could do without that again.
Some of Yneighbors who have seen your kids grow up and never thought they were any smarter than their kids, and colleagues who never thought you were “special” in any way WILL “take notes” when they know your kids go to a prestigious elite school. It could mean awkwardness. But that’s not all. One day you will hear them casually tell you how they think it’s “crazy” to spend a lot on college which is nothing compared with the local school but fancy dorms and gym, and that an unmotivated kid won’t get any more successful even if they go to a fancy college (hint: I am talking about your kid.)… It’s wise to keep it on the need-to-know basis. Just not worth it.
@IxnayBob, you don’t have to listen to me but please put the bumper sticker on the car.
I don’t like lying. My daughter has a Pinocchio Nose. Her nose grows 3 ft when she
Iies. She doesn’t lie much. She inherited her nose from me.
Think about it. The hockey moms went home after talking to you and one mom rolled her eyes. They thought about making dinner which they didn’t want to do. Or they thought “My husband is going to want to have sex tonight. I would rather read a book”.
My wife is ok. She is in Canada and I am in the US…but when she comes home…
If your son says don’t discuss… that changes things. I am kind of with you. Shouldn’t discuss. I did cross the line a few times.
I don’t like to waste time thinking what other people are thinking…when they aren’t thinking what I am thinking.
Are you even going to know these hockey moms someday? You are almost done with them. I used to have an argument with a friend of mine. Whose kid was a better athlete? The kids didn’t care. Lol! Thank god the friend moved away. I haven’t talked to him for 10 years. (My kid is a better athlete) .
Is your son going to play hockey in college? I won’t roll my eyes.
@dstark, when the last child matriculates, I will put stickers in the window for each of the current schools. I’ll have my Tesla by then, let them roll their eyes at that! :))
My son plays club hockey in college, but only sporadically. He played at AA level in travel hockey; skilled and fast but not up to the level of contact that exists in AAA/juniors. Even club hockey is more physical than I’m comfortable with.
Those hockey moms are long gone. Still, it bothers me because I thought we were friends.
"Some of Yneighbors who have seen your kids grow up and never thought they were any smarter than their kids, and colleagues who never thought you were “special” in any way WILL “take notes” when they know your kids go to a prestigious elite school. "
-Who is doing this type of talks, who cares and who discussing these things with neighbors and co-workers? Everybody is into their own world, even HS kids do not discuss these things among themselves, they have better things to talk about…This seems to be from the distance past, it is not going on now. We have a real fear in our family, granddaughter actually wants to attend at Ivy. I just hope that she will return to a real world and follow the footsteps of everybody else in a family…Discussing this with outsiders will not help though…
Miami, you seem to know the educational background of every single med student your daughter knows or has known so why are you surprised that people know where kids from their neighborhood are going to college when they actually KNOW those kids in real life?
@IxnayBob - I had a similar situation when my D was applying for schools last year. Slightly different b/c it was prestige of program rather than prestige of overall school (D is a BFA student- ivies weren’t what these kids were gunning for - though acceptance rates in her top programs were well under 10%) Anyway, there were other parents who had their heart set on their kid getting the “best” choice of acceptances - and when my kid got into some fantastic programs - well, let’s just say that things got unpleasant. then life moved on, and those parents are no longer a part of my world. But it did hurt b/c I had thought we were friends- and that part does still bother me
Who said this? Unemployable? It’s hard (maybe just for me) to convey nuance on a forum like this. The topic of the thread is whether it’s worth it for a family to pay for an elite university if paying will put stress on the family finances. The answer, like the answer to almost all questions, is “it depends.” Of course graduates of elite universities have many opportunities, based both on the strength of their degrees and the alumni networks. The discussion is about the extent to which graduates of more affordable schools also have opportunities, and some of the limitations of how many doors are opened by the elite degrees. If it were all or nothing there would be nothing to discuss.
I’ve never heard anyone claim that they didn’t want to hire someone because the hiring manager was holding a grudge about not being accepted to a particular school. I wouldn’t even want to work for someone who thought that way. It probably happens, just like a lot of other pathological behavior happens somewhere, but it can’t be common.
“It already happens without future managers “holding it against” them. I have hired a lot for firms, going through hundreds of resumes at a time and have been told by plenty of firms to cruise by the Ivy league kids. Some figure they have had all kinds of opportunity, are spoiled, and primarily that they won’t want to work themselves up a ladder as hard as kid at non-Ivy U. Not saying I said this, or that it is that way everywhere, but there are many employers with no interest in Ivy students, and agree with @sax, as society becomes more about levels, I can see that bias playing a stronger role and becoming more prevalent. Of course there are people that want them, but it is surprising to see how many CEOs and high level HR people have instructed me to look elsewhere.”
MomofJandL
"@blueskies2day, is it considered a “bias” if it’s evidence based? Once you’ve hired a few Ivy grads who have left the company when they find they have to grind it out with the Western State U grads, you have to start considering whether your recruiting and training dollars are better spent elsewhere.
After a few years, it evens out again - “even” Ivy grads with strong work records can get hired by the firms that might not have taken them right out of school. "
You can’t make this stuff up. So yeah, poor Cornell grads who leave when they find they have to grind it out with Western State U grads. And MomofJ and L- exactly WHAT did you mean by saying that the bias against Ivy grads is evidence based???
MomofJandL and others: I started this side conversation when I wondered if the great number of denied students would tend to not hire graduates from the prestigious universities because they knew that they and others were just as capable as graduates from the top schools.
In other words will milllenials become unimpressed with the prestige factor of ones education?
@blossom, I’ve been in meetings where we decided where to spend time and money recruiting, and where to back off. In those meetings, one of the topics that comes up is how many offers are accepted at the schools, and how long those hires stay around. When we find that we have a consistently low acceptance rate and high attrition from a school, we turn our efforts to different schools. Sometimes it’s geographic, sometimes it’s other issues, but the point is that most successful organizations try to do what works for them and stop doing what doesn’t work.
Many doors are opened for graduates from elite schools, but not all doors are opened wide forever in life once you have that degree. That’s the nuance part. Some very good things, not always all great things everywhere forever.
I haven’t seen anyone on this thread claim that elite school grads have more trouble finding jobs than Western State U grads. But if Western State U is all a family can afford without risking the parents’ retirement security, those grads have places to go where they can not just get by but excel.
"Miami, you seem to know the educational background of every single med student your daughter knows ’
-That was not from talking. When we went to White Coat ceremony before they even started in first year, we received a brochure that listed background of every single student in class. Of course, in addition to that, all friends know where they attend, even for a pure sake of visiting. They visit each other.
The professional parents posting about their own hiring practices are an example of how hiring is done now.
What will it be like in 15 years? That is what I was pondering. So many excellent students who know that they had the numbers etc to be enrolled at top universities but ended up at others lower down the prestige ladder.
If you add on the top level kids who couldn’t go to top schools due to the recession it might be a very large number.
Will THEY still be swayed by the names when they are in hiring postitions?
I have been on CC for several years but I am relatively new to the parent’s forum. (As I have mentioned elsewhere my D’s college journey was very program specific, so The forum for her major was most valuable for info etc) But since I have “crossed over”, I have noticed one of two attitudes about “elite” schools (esp ivies- but lots of others too) on CC. 1. “Kid must attend '_’ elite school(s) no matter what. 2. " colleges are not worth it”. People have strong opinions (as well they should- it’s a major decision and and lot of $ no matter where you go) but there doesn’t seem to be a lot of open mindedness. I think the whole college process: school, major, payment- is a really personal family choice. Do what feels right to YOU- and don’t worry about what future employers or neighbors or anyone else might think. We went the elite private route- even though my kid could have had a full ride at state flagship. (They don’t have her major though) I love her school, kid loves her school- and at the end of the day, that’s what matters.
Sax, I have one example, a USC grad who is a partner at top VC company after graduating from college less than 3 years. My daughters sophomore roommate.
On CC, USC is not considered top colleges, heck it’s not even in the top colleges sub forum, so I’m not exaggerating.
OK Sax, I’ll take a crack at a direct answer. I posit that the Millennials will care less about prestige over time. And I certainly believe that they are unlikely to hold a grudge against schools who rejected them. They will have to contend with a rapidly changing job market where skills matter far than where you went to school. This is already manifesting itself today in Silicon Valley - Apple hires more SJ State grads each year than any other school.
They say the average millennial will have 6-8 jobs by the age of 35. I know some people who recruit for tech companies where it is viewed as a positive to have many jobs in a short time b/c it gives you more breadth across many technologies, and that those who graduate and stay in one place for 5 yrs or more are sort of “fuddie-duddies”. While I’m not going to say that there won’t be any loyalties to (or biases against) certain schools by certain people, I would argue that by and large the millennials are not going to have time for this.
Also, given the rapid changes in demographics at our elite universities over the past 30 years, I think there will also be a slow whittling away at the old boys’ network typically associated with such institutions (which will in turn place less emphasis on said networks for hiring decisions).
Getting back to the original question.There is no one right answer to this.
There are kids who bloom where they are planted. There are kids who are orchids and need special handling to bloom. I have a kid who needs competition to do her best. It’s not her most endearing quality, but she is who she is.
It’s also about what the kid wants to study and where. The other engineering students at UMichigan or Berkeley are going to be very bright. The other kids studying poli sci or sociology at a mid tier public U may not be. In the first situation a very bright kid will be fine. In the latter, maybe not. Maybe your kid wants to study Egyptology and none of your state Us offer that.
Especially in science, it may be about research opportunites.
It’s about ECs. At large public Us, these tend to be semi-professional and you have to be extraordinary to participate. You’ve got to be an outstanding musician to make the marching band, for example. You may have to have a serious chance of going pro to play football or hockey. The campus paper’s staff may be limited to journalism majors.
At HYPSMC/AWS the marching band is a fun thing to do even though it’s marching will never match Ohio State’s. If you like to play football, you may be able to do so, even though you have no chance at all of playing pro ball. There aren’t any journalism majors and you can major in anything and work fo the campus paper. Plus, it’s likely that there are at least a half dozen other publications you can write for. There are very few students who don’t participate in at least one EC. And lots of kids do several ECs.
And these ECs are well funded. Harvard kids can spend their summer traveling in exotic places writing a “Lets Go!” guide. Yale a capella group members go on overseas tours.
I think a lot of people miss the fact that attending a top school isn’t all about alumni networks and jobs. It’s the experience you can have while you are there.
@MiamiDAP: Virtual reality could distort things, but if your performance on CC is any indicator at all, the chances of someone like you IRL not voicing their STRONG opinions on how wrong it is to go to an Ivy using the classic example of your daughter are slim to none. I am sure at least some posters know what I am talking about. It is not “discussions with outsiders”. It’s unsolicited criticisms from outsiders who happen to have that piece of info about your life. Sounds ridiculous right? Is it awfully bothersome? Not really. It’s a little awkward when you don’t know what to say in response.
Back to OP - I don’t know if the 14 pages of discussion have really helped, but I understand that if you are not qualified for much FA and are on the “borderline” of full pay, the decision of whether your child should go to an expensive elite college is a harder decision to make. I’d say if it would mean major adjustment to your and other family members’ lifestyle by paying then maybe it’s not worth it. Elite education is NOT a necessity after all. There are many different ways to skin a cat.
And no, I don’t care where your kids went to school, nor the kid down the street. My kids have attended a community college, Rutgers, Boston College, Yale, and one hopes to be accepted at RISD. I of course love them equally. The schools they attend are of no consequence in my regard for them.
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