So if you decide now that a state school will be sufficient, you would encourage her to take it easy through high school? Can’t say I endorse that thinking. Even if you ultimately choose an “easier” college, going through high school with a load of AP’s and a seemingly exhausting schedule of activities she likes is great prep for a successful college career and adult life.
Your child is going into 8th grade? You mean she isn’t even out of middle school yet and already there are dream schools? (and people wonder why kids are stressed and anxious). Let’s dial back a bit. First, expand your universe of schools beyond elites and state universities. There are hundreds of colleges and universities in between. Get to know them.
Okay, I know this is hyperbole but the thought of sizing up one’s academic competition for college in middle school is really sad.
Like I said, dial it back. Way back. Let your child grow and, yes, make mistakes, during her time in 8th grade and high school. Don’t have her focused so intently on the next stage that she loses sight of where she is now. She just needs to find her interests and learn to work hard. Yes, she needs to strive for the best possible grades but she doesn’t need to load up on classes she doesn’t want to take for the sake of AP or GPA. Her eventual path may surprise her 8th grade self and you.
It’s up to you to decide whether or not you want to pay $80,000 and up a year for college when it’s her turn. Or if you even can pay that amount of money. For some people, they saved up over the years funds, knowing that college costs would be high and this sum of money isn’t unexpected. For others, they saved but not quite that amount and for others, they have the funds but have other financial priorities.
I don’t think that 8th grade is too soon to be thinking about long-term academic plans.
In our school district and many other large districts, 8th graders have to decide whether to apply for selective high school magnet programs. That’s a big decision with long-term implications, and in some instances, it’s the child who makes the decision, not the parent. If kids are mature enough to make that kind of decision, I think they’re mature enough to at least start thinking about life after high school.
"So if you decide now that a state school will be sufficient, you would encourage her to take it easy through high school? "
- Nope, if you want huge Merit scholarships. However, kid should be engaged in everything that she wants, if you call it “take it easy”. Kid should not be a “study hermits”. Busy HS’er learn how to manage their time and this is a crucial skill to succeed in college. Another point is why not ALWAYS perform at your very best, ALWAYS strive for an A in every single class, like it or not and make sure to live the balanced life pursuing non-academic interests, be social, develop personal skills by surrounding yourself with good friends…and continue the same way at college. Very rewarding life, great memories looking back!!
I don’t think my child would be “taking it easy” if we tell her we’re not paying $60+K per year at someplace like Stanford even if she’s lucky enough to get in. (And as someone who transferred from a third tier college to a top tier university back in the 90s, I would also not assume by any means that less selective schools are “easier.”) But instead of aiming for the most selective schools with every ounce of her being in high school, maybe she could read a book she’s interested in just for the sake of intellectual curiosity, or try something new and not worry about failing at it and how that’ll look on her application, or not have the crushing worry that few ACT points would come between her and her goals?
I see high school kids who are caught up in the top college race spending 7 hours in school and then 3-4 on homework, and that’s not even accounting for their time on extracurriculars, travel to and from school/those activities, etc. Such a schedule seems to be a prerequisite for these top-ranked schools nowadays. I would not say it’s particularly good prep for anything else when taken to that extreme. I didn’t work 12+ hour days most days in my “highly selective” college or grad school (and I was one of the hardest workers I know), and when I did put in those kind of hours professionally in my 20s and 30s (working Saturdays a bit too, for 60-70 hour average work weeks), I was considered extraordinary and rewarded commensurately. My spouse put in all-day and into-the-night marathons in medical school and residency, but I don’t think he’d say a student is better prepared for that by working like a dog throughout high school. (Btw: He’s a primary care doc for a largely indigent patient population, so hence being a doctor’s family who can’t swing $60K/year, no matter what FAFSA says. We are by no means rich, and seeing people lose limbs because they can’t afford their diabetes drugs or suffer with intractable pain because Medicaid or Blue Cross won’t pay for a surgery that will likely help them has taught us the value of money.)
Some people have confused my kid’s top school dreams with my own. I entertain them only because they are hers and there sure seems to be a lot of demand for these top schools. It’s precisely because I know how those US News rankings are calculated that I’m able to question the herd mentality (judging by rejection stats and my kid’s rising 8th grader compatriots’ interest in name brand schools) that these schools are “worth it,” by any definition, in terms of how much exclusive tunnel vision and exhausting effort they seem to require to even qualify for consideration for acceptance, and how much money they charge families without financial need basis. We have two kids, and I can’t imagine spending half a million between them for two undergrad degrees. It just seems nuts, like some sort of arms race that families with ambitious kids and some resources (since so many who populate these schools are from upper income tiers) have foisted upon ourselves because we lack imagination about what else this kind of money can do in the world or for our children. However, given there’s so much interest on here generally about how to get into these name brand, highly selective schools, I figure I must be missing something. If I can’t figure this out on my own as an adult who knows what it’s like to pay back loads of student loans, putting such enormous decisions on the shoulders of a 17 yr old kid in a few years seems unwise. The possibility of maximizing 4 years’ worth of her life at the expense of the other 60+ years of it a heavy one to weigh, and I’m very appreciative for everyone’s help here.
Thanks to everyone for your input and wisdom and pointing out links and more info!!! Hearing your perspectives is very useful. I know this is an “old” debate, but I’ve not seen it asked in terms of parents who know they’re not probably going to be getting any aid, so it’s an angle unique to us in the lucky minority able to worry about this. Thanks!
The title “Private Universities and Colleges Not Worth It for Upper Income Families” is awfully broad when your posts sounds like you are talking specifically about the top 20. There are plenty of private schools that offer generous merit to their strongest applicants regardless of income. An affluent kid doesn’t need to attend the lowest ranked public commuter university in their area to save money on college.
Should your daughter opt out of the “rat race?” Well, that is really a long-term quality of life issue that your family should discuss. Personally, I did not encourage that with my kids. They had plenty of examples of kids living that life and yes, those kids went to the Harvards and Stanfords. However, my kids didn’t like what they saw, didn’t want that life and we didn’t want it for them. So D goes to an LAC that’s only in the top 30. Poor baby… had the childhood she wanted but had to drop a few rungs on college rankings. You’d be hard-pressed to find a kid happier in their college experience. We’ll see what S does when his time comes.
I’ll end with two thoughts. The “horrors” of kids you don’t like at higher ranked schools fades pretty quickly after graduation. Certainly shouldn’t be a factor in college choice. While it’s not too early to talk about family finances and share your very broadest views on college, be very careful not to start making college regular dinner conversation in 8th grade. She’s got so much growing to do. Spending too much time deciding on colleges when you aren’t close to being fully developed is a waste of energy. You don’t even know what her transcript and resume will look like… she could have an emotional event that tanks her grades a semester or two, she could have an issue with certain personality that causes her to leave an activity you thought she’d stick with forever… there are countless things that may happen that can alter what her options will be come senior year. Just living in the college admissions world junior year is hard enough to sustain without going a little crackers.
I don’t disagree but for me that doesn’t have to include striving for specific colleges. For me it means exploring academic interests and doing one’s best so that when it comes time to apply to colleges the widest possible range of options remains open.
For instance, if your daughter is interested in marine biology let her take a fun summer course at Scripps or Wood’s Hole, but don’t let her convince herself that she’ll never get into a graduate program in marine biology unless she attends Harvard, Cornell or Duke. It’s just not true. Besides, by the next year she might have moved on to linguistics or Russian history or political science!
OP: when you see the rankings of “schools with best return on investment”, I generally find when I read it that the expensive schools are on the list not bc the students get much better paying jobs, or return. They are on there bc the list is considering tuition minus the average financial aid. So if you get none, the ROI is very different.
I like this attitude. IMHO it doesn’t make sense to make a kid miserable for 4 years with some amorphous goal in mind. My advice would be to let her know that when it comes time for college her list may be constrained by a budget, but put off the discussion of specific schools and just encourage her to explore, stretch herself, and do her best in whatever she takes on. Want some other free advice? Encourage her to be nice. Not only will it make her a better person, but it will be reflected in her teachers’ college recommendations.
We’re full pay parents thanks to an inheritance that dropped in our laps when our kids were in high school. Both our parents gave us the gift of being able to go to college wherever we liked and I would have been hard-pressed not to do the same for my kids. (An exception might be if they were sure they wanted med school.) In eighth grade you probably have a good sense if your kid will be among those in the top 10% of the class who will be competitive for the most selective school or not. If your kid has participated in Talent Searches you may have a sense of whether they are in the top 1 or 2% of kids nationwide on whatever it is that the SAT measures. At this point the main thing is to encourage the kid not to close any doors. Take math all four years, unless there is a very good reason not to. Take a rigorous schedule, but that doesn’t mean you have to take every AP class out there. Make sure that the kid is involved in something outside schoolwork - this can be clubs or sports at school or it can be something outside of school all together, though I do think that doing something within the school community helps the GC have a little more sense of who you are.
For my older son, my number one wish for him was to attend a college where there would be a substantial number of kids smarter than him. He wanted the best and most challenging computer science program he could find. The SUNY’s are fine universities, but they weren’t right for him. It was worth every penny we spent, and in fact he could easily have paid off any loans, had he had any.
Younger son wasn’t quite as much of an academic superstar, but he’s one of those kids would is enough of a slacker that he does better surrounded by pretty driven kids. He didn’t get a perfect GPA at his selective college, but we think it was the right place for him. He’s in a low-paying field so if you look at it only as a math equation you’d probably say it wasn’t worth it.
I sent my kids to college for an education not ROI, so I’m not complaining.
Lots of great advice for the OP. I especially agree with two points from Romani:
First I will add my opinion based on my belief system. A quarter of a million for an undergraduate degree is not worth it in most situations. We can afford $250k, but set parameters for both our children. We communicated from an early age that when they went to college (not “if”) that we would pay for the equivalent of our state flagship. (in our case UIUC with an in-state cost of around $130k) If they found a “passion” that would benefit from attending a high cost option, we would discuss it as a family. Things we would consider: ROI, how much effort they had shown to date, “wants versus needs” for that pursuit, etc. If we did not deem the extra expense worthwhile, they would be responsible for making up the difference with scholarships, loans, work, etc…the “skin in the game” approach.
Second, we too have always stressed skill building. High school with APs and ECs is a time of self-discovery. By seeking rigor and diverse experiences (service, leadership, athletics) you build confidence and direction. In my opinion, APs and ECs should not be done in attempt to ‘get into a dream school’, but rather a way to explore different areas of interest and learn time management skills. They should be a part of a larger goal as defined by the individual. When that individual is young (entering the 8th grade) I think they benefit greatly if parental involvement includes the message that the choices made today can influence the opportunities in the future.
Lastly, I think it would be enlightening to discuss why she values highly selective schools. Listening to her aspirations may help you decide upon a path when approaching future choices. It’s also and excellent opportunity to convey your values and expectations. Good luck! 
Good points OP. Some top 20 colleges now have a full 4-year Cost of Attendance of > $260,000. Some state flagships award full-tuition scholarships for top students. At what price will private colleges become too expensive for parents that don’t qualify for financial aid?
Very good discussion here. I agree we need to weigh our priorities. But what i told my son is that we fund it if he makes it in.
In my opinion ROI is the wrong way to think about a college education. A good education is its own reward. That’s true in HS as well as in college; if the students works hard in HS only to get the grades and honors that will help her chances of getting into a highly selective college, she’ll miss a lot. And if she goes to college only for the financial payoff at the end, she’ll have wasted what could be 4 of the most rewarding years of her life.
That’s not to say you shouldn’t consider costs, or that your daughter shouldn’t work to get good grades, or that career options should be off the table for discussion. You need to decide what you’re realistically able to pay, and what you’re willing to pay (these are not necessarily the same). And that depends, in part, on what you value.
I happen to value education for its own sake, though I certainly realize that value isn’t universally shared. DW and I also somehow managed to instill in our daughters a deep love of learning–or perhaps it was something innate in them for which we really shouldn’t claim credit, but either way, their love of learning is almost boundless, and they learn with a passion and joy that is a delight to behold. They wanted good college educations, and we wanted them to have good college educations. I think it’s possible to get a very good education at almost any public flagship, though some have more resources to help a student along that path than others. (I’m the product of a public flagship, but in my case it was the University of Michigan, one of the very strongest public flagships, which made it very easy to get what I regard as an outstanding undergraduate education). But giant public universities aren’t for everyone. Both of our daughters preferred small LACs. It was daunting to figure out how to pay for it, because like the OP, we were just above the cutoff point in income and resources for need-based financial aid, which meant at most of the best LACs we’d be full-pays. That seemed simply impossible when we first stared it in the eye. But we got out a sharp pencil and calculated that if we combined the savings we had already set aside for college with an increased savings rate for the remainder of their HS and college years, a timely refinancing of our mortgage, a contribution from our daughters out of their own term-time and summer earnings (both in HS and college), certain economies achieved by having our daughters away at school (lower car insurance rates, less groceries, smaller restaurant tabs, some entertainment costs on their budget not ours), some belt-tightening on our part (no vacations, no daily latte, a sack lunch rather than lunch out, fewer dinners out, less frequent theater evenings, cheaper cuts of meat, more vegetarian meals, deferral of some other savings and investments to divert that savings stream into the college fund), and some modest loans to spread the cost across more of our prime earning years, we could just barely swing it. Both of our daughters got into very good schools–not with the prestige value of an Ivy,but neither they nor we were looking for prestige. So we swallowed hard and took the plunge. No regrets. We gave our daughters (with their help financially and a lot of hard work on their part) the college educations they wanted, and that we had always wanted for them. The result was not only 4 years of feasting at an incredibly rich smorgasbord for the mind, but knowledge, insights, understanding, sensibilities, and skills they will carry with them, and build on, for the rest of their lives. The financial payoff? Well, let’s just say that hasn’t materialized yet, but I’m not worried. They’ll always be able to support themselves, and they’re smart, resourceful, talented, skilled, and well educated young women with a strong work ethic who in due time will find their niches and carve out careers, hopefully careers they find satisfying not just for the paycheck but for the work itself. But the most important rewards they’ve gotten out of college can’t be measured in dollars and sense. We made a lot of financial sacrifices to get to this point, but who better to sacrifice for than one’s own children? In my book, it was money well spent.
I realize not everyone is in a position to make those same choices, or wants to make those same choices, and many people have a much more instrumental view of education as a path to a remunerative career. And that’s fine. As a parent you need to do some thinking about what you want your child to get out of a college education–and it helps if you and your child are on the same page on that question, so it may be worth some discussion, but 8th grade is probably too early. In the end, how much you’re willing to pay will be partly a function of how much you can pay, once you’ve gotten out that sharp pencil and considered all the angles (it may be more than you initially think), and partly a function of how much you’re willing to sacrifice in light of your child’s educational goals and your own aspirations for her. Very few parents can send their children to college without making some level of financial sacrifice, but there’s no right or wrong answer about what level of sacrifice is appropriate. That’s for you to decide for yourself.
“But instead of aiming for the most selective schools with every ounce of her being in high school, maybe she could read a book she’s interested in just for the sake of intellectual curiosity, or try something new and not worry about failing at it and how that’ll look on her application, or not have the crushing worry that few ACT points would come between her and her goals?”
- All those things, every HS’er and every college kid should be doing IN ADDITION and not instead. No need to “worry”, but the goal to perform your best at everything that you do (in addition to taking risks, I agree that this should be part of the young life) is an admirable goal that will lead to a great personal satisfaction and also to learning more of your personal limits, meeting different type of people, a. k. a growing personally. Many neglect this aspect of the HS and college education. But as I said, it should not be instead, it should be in addition and it should not be neglected. However, I did not mean in addition to “aiming for the most selective schools”, I meant in addition to the goal of doing your absolutely best in every single class, why not? Great result will be appreciated by a kid personally and at every single place where she sends her application! Some will show more love than the . It worked for my kid for both selection of the HS and selection of the college. The biggest offers resulted in the best matches (looking back and knowing much more about different HS’s and colleges!). Both choices were not her number one originally. but she said, looking back she would have not chosen differently.
One fact to keep in mind is that, if the school offers tons, then they know that the student fits with them, otherwise, they would have given the money to somebody else. This is a heavy factor to consider.
I don’t think this is productive:
“whether killing herself with max APs, best possible grades and ACT Prep (in addition to everything else) is going to be a better path in terms of college placement than relaxing a little and not turning into an anxious, exhausted neurotic”
No one has to “kill themselves with max AP’s” nor get test prep. Plenty of kids take a rigorous schedule, not max APs but the ones they like/relate to their major, and don’t do test prep. And many of those kids are not “anxious, exhausted neurotics”. There are benefits to taking honors and AP classes - the classes in general are harder of course, and cover more material of course, but they are generally taught with more interaction and collaboration, and less rote.
I have to ask the OP though - is this about money, or is this about letting your daughter know “hey, don’t try your best because we can’t pay for the best” so she doesn’t have to bother to do her best?
I suppose who you really should be asking about this is your daughter - will she bother to try, in order to get as much money as possible in scholarships and merit aid as possible and have great self-esteem knowing she tried her best, even if she isn’t going to an Ivy or top elite, or will she drop to regular classes because she will end up at State U anyway…
However, I am wondering about your situation - if you have a “modest mortgage” not indicative of your income, but FAFSA calculations think you can pay 65K+ per year, I’m expecting you are in the 200K+ family income range or have significant (more than 500K) liquid assets (cash in the bank or stocks or savings not in retirement accounts). Have you looked at whether you can change your mortgage into a HELOC and take out reasonable loans if she does end up qualifying for top schools?
With one child and significant income and/or assets, I’m not sure what any “rainy day” is being saved for. In our case, we have a bit of similarity to mathmom, and we took that and paid off our mortgage instead of keeping it liquid. I agree 100% with mathmom who says this:
"Both our parents gave us the gift of being able to go to college wherever we liked and I would have been hard-pressed not to do the same for my kids. "
so in my case, since my parents busted their azzes to pay for my education to an Ivy, and went without for a good while, I could only do the same for my kids.
Another thing - someone said 240K per year, certainly it is 240K per FOUR years at most (possibly very slightly more). And note that does include personal expenses and travel costs.
Finally, grad school being paid for by the parents but not top undergrad school seems like a waste. That is, if the grad school is a PhD program, many are tuition-free with stipends. Certainly med and law school aren’t that way, but PhD programs are.
Ultimately - is 60K per year for four years worth it? If you make 200K+ per year, what would you be spending it on anyway? My family has a 40K EFC and we have to deal with “is 40K per year worth it” when yes, there were 20K options. But our son does better with students who are closer to his ability and interest level, and he would be well over 75th percentile at the 20K per year schools.
I would think it would be even worse if your child does not do her best, and ends up missing out on honors and AP classes, and is with kids who are not motivated and not striving, than telling her "we will do what we can, but we cannot promise schools more than 40 K per year.
(or instead of “40K per year”, whatever is acceptable to your family)
(obviously you and your spouse do not have to pay a dime for her college, but that’s not I understood, just that 60K per year was “too much” as if richer folks are being bilked and middle and lower class folks are laughing all the way to the bank)
What’s wrong with having a dream school in 8th grade? One can have a dream as long as she’s aware that sometimes dream is just that, a dream.
My daughter is younger than 8th grade, and she wants to go to our alma mater.
We use it as a wedge to get her to do her homework. If she doesn’t make it into the classes she needs to be in, fine, but if she has dreams, they start with her, and us providing the money for an Ivy League education is the final part.
Also, our share of my son’s college is 40K per year, but he knows that he will have to drop out if we cannot afford it in the future. That is a conversation that all parents should have with their children, if they know they might be extending themselves a little on paying for college.
Seems like HS is a good time to engage in the humanities, read deeply, observe as well. “Cool Hand Luke”. Updike: “when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill”, etc.
OP, check out threads by curmudgeon – he was a (very popular and very funny) poster a few years ago facing a similar dilemma. His high achieving pre-med daughter actually got into several top schools, including Amherst and Yale, famous schools that cost tens of thousands of dollars. She also got a full ride from a small southern college. What to do: prestige at a price or small school savings? His daughter chose – for purely financial reason – the full ride. Until she matriculated, her dad was torn whether it was the right decision. Fast forward four years and daughter is applying to med schools. She excelled in her small school, getting top grades, winning research opportunities and acing MCATs… all of which landed her interviews at top medical schools. She ended up at… Yale. The money her family saved with the full ride went towards paying med school expenses.
There are many roads to success.