@fatdog11, what is wrong with becoming a dermatologist?
They also cure cancers, melanomas for example.
NM
OP: there is no pat answer. Your circumstances and your kid aren’t my circumstances or my kid. As others have counseled, slow down and enjoy the ride.
Encourage your daughter to try out different camps, clubs, and educational experiences. Travel. Cook. Debate politics at the kitchen table. Volunteer. Work.
You and she will get a better sense of fit once she’s a high school sophomore. FWIW, my Ds did the opposite of what I would have expected when they were in 8th grade. Both are happy; one is a newly graduated BSN about to start her nursing career and the other is a rising college sophomore at a LAC.
The Ivy race is kind of sad and myopic from my perspective. Crack open the options list a good bit wider and see what’s out there.
With the cost of most colleges these days, ROI forces itself into the discussion for all but the super-wealthy. This includes the ROI with respect to non-financial benefits of college education. There are likely many students facing the choices of stretch-budget-with-loans school versus comfortably-affordable school versus full-ride school comparing the costs with how well each school appears to offer the desired intellectual stimulation, independent of job and career prospects and post-graduation professional goals that may or may not differ between the schools.
I think it’s smart to think about ROI but it’s really hard to compare schools based on it because there just isn’t a lot of good information on it. The ROI lists I’ve seen are pretty useless in that they only look at terminal bachelor’s degrees and don’t compare by major. What that means is that the schools at the top are almost always schools with engineering programs because that’s the field where graduates with only a BA/BS (as opposed to a JD, MD, or MBA) earn the most.
Yes, with respect to financial ROI, comparison of post-graduation financial outcomes by college tends to give useless or misleading information when majors are not considered.
OP I found the tone of your post extremely refreshing. I get it. Totally.
If your daughter is definitely going to grad school, a state school should be fine. If you are in CA consider the community college route. Not glamorous, but it can get her to Berkeley or UCLA undergrad and save a lot of moulah.
Didn’t read all the responses, but to share my thoughts on the question of whether a top ranked private college is worth it - Is it worth “the money”? Well, if you look at the prospect of her life time earning, it really depends on what career she’s going to pursue. In the short run, her college may help open some doors, but in the long run if she persists in perusing the high-pay jobs, one way or another she will get there. In that sense, since she’s so young and her interests can and will change in the future, if ROI is what you are thinking, then you are betting on long odds, which the alternative (ie an inexpensive college) might well get her where she wants to be as well anyway. However, since you do have the resource, I would answer the “worth the money” question by looking at in paying the hefty tuition how much hardship you are overcoming or how much sacrifice you are making. If it’s posing a “serious” threat to your lifestyle, then it’s probably not worth it. Otherwise, as some posted earlier, her 4 years of time and the “soft skills”, network and influence she’s gaining from a great college experience will make it worthwhile.
Will it be “worth the work in HS”? I say yes. HS years should be about stretching oneself, absorbing knowledge, developing abilities, learning time management, handling pressure etc etc. to be prepared for college, which will be a very different play ground than K-12. Whether she will reach the star at the end of HS, the work is never wasted.
If I were in your situation, I’d at some point lay out different paths for her, and analyze with her the pros and cons, and possible impact including financial impact of each scenario. You should feel free to share your value (after your research), but since money is really not a deterring factor here, eventually I’d leave the decision on which path she wants to pursue up to her. My 2c.
@lindyk8 The D is in MIDDLE SCHOOL. How on earth can she or anyone say that she is definitely going to grad school?!
OP, you sound like a very good parent with a driven daughter. I applaud you for trying to get a feel for what might be ahead. I really encourage you to encourage your child to slow down. Having goals is great- critical even! But it’s also good to focus on the present.
Our S preferred the AP courses, as they tended to have the more motivated teachers and students. Our D opted not to have AP classes, so it really depends on the individual. S worked very hard and was able to score merit awards that halved the cost of tuition at many of the private Us he applied to, which made those affordable choices for us and allowed him a larger number of schools that HE was interested in to choose among.
Because S was able to get significant merit awards, it made the full-pay for D who followed a bit easier.
There are many ways for kids to get a good education and the last degree they obtain is the one that folks remember, whether it’s their undergrad degree or a grad/professional degree. Both of our kids made good contacts at their private U. Neither has so far chosen to get a grad/pro degree, but we suspect that may be in the future. There were a lot of internship opportunities at the job fairs on our kids campus, which I suspect is also the case at many other Us.
“But instead of aiming for the most selective schools with every ounce of her being in high school, maybe she could read a book she’s interested in just for the sake of intellectual curiosity, or try something new and not worry about failing at it and how that’ll look on her application.” This is more typical of Ivy bound students than the kind of grind you seem to think is required. I don’t think you understand selective admissions. It might help to read some essays on admissions sites.
I think it is reasonable for a parent to start thinking about college as high school starts (not earlier) but it is disturbing to hear about 8th graders talking about getting into Harvard etc. This may be just a very immature kind of discussion on their part and should perhaps not be taken too seriously, and also discouraged by parents. Ditto with the med school ambition. This ambition is the next step after childhood play when kids want to be a fireman or a rock star. Medicine is a well-known profession often in the media (and this child has a parent who is an MD to boot). Thinking about Harvard and thinking about medicine seem related: a childish emphasis on name brand school and profession that, hopefully, will evolve. The world is complex in a way 8th graders don’t understand. (If your daughter continues to be fixated on selective schools, I think it is good to discourage the whole “dream school” thing for many reasons: admissions is a crap shoot, there are many great schools, and it is okay to mention that money may possibly be an issue, but not in a way that is discouraging as yet. Wait and see what the money issues really are in-what- 5 years. )
Parenting driven kids is a tricky thing. Romani’s parents are models, apparently 
You can keep college in your own mind throughout the next few years, but I would advise keeping college OUT of your daughter’s mind until mid-junior year if you can. It is very important emotionally and even spiritually to live life authentically. That may sound corny but I don’t know any other way to say it. It is just plain destructive to live your life in order to get into any college. OR with the preconceived notion that you should live differently because you are NOT going to certain colleges.
Course load should be interesting, challenging but reasonable and allow for some free time, no matter what the college goal is. If an additional AP means cutting down on music or a play or healthy social life or even sleep, it’s not worth it. As your child discovers interests, encourage, find resources, pay (and drive!) if you can.
As for loans and helping professions: there are loan forgiveness programs for public service. Check them out.
In a couple of years, when this issue starts to become truly relevant, or maybe now since you are already thinking about college, read about other colleges besides the brand names. I always suggest Loren Pope’s books “Colleges that Change Lives” (book, website, national fairs) and “Looking Beyond the Ivy League.” Your own feelings about all this will of course affect your child.
If you are full pay, your income is above $150k. I think it is a false dichotomy to set up the choice between Ivy etc., and public, though public universities are often great choices, especially those with honors programs
If the school she is in is hypercompetitive, I would consider other choices for high school too, though quality of education often goes hand in hand with competitive ambitions. I am, however, eternally grateful that my kids went to a low stress working class school, which gave them ample time to follow their interests outside of school.
p.s. read and reread Romani’s post, which are wise, and more concise than I seem to be able to manage!
OP, you are getting lots of great advice. As others have stated in one way or another I wouldn’t personally look at it in terms of taking a specific route just for the goal of trying to get into an elite college. My D is a high achiever and ended up taking a lot of AP classes but not every one that was available. She enjoyed being in classes that were challenging and interesting and with other students who were at a similar level and had similar interests.I would encourage you to guide your D to explore, expand and refine her interests. Just some random thoughts- both my S and D have found it valuable to have taken the most advanced English courses in HS even though it wasn’t their primary interest. IMO strong writing skills are helpful in college for virtually all students. My D, just finished her freshman year and has remarked many times that she is exceptionally well prepared for college. A lot of that because she has strong writing skills. My D got overwhelmed and stressed in her first 2 years of HS because she is a multitalented/ interested kid who wanted to try so many things. At the end of her sophomore year she realized she needed to edit some of her ec’s because she was running herself ragged. That was a valuable experience for her in getting to know herself and soul searching what was really important and what she really wanted to focus her energy on. My S was never really interested in any social sciences/ history courses and was taking the regular classes, which were easy but usually boring, until Jr. year in HS he decided to take APUSH, had a great teacher and loved it and it opened up a new interest for him. He has had similar experiences in college taking classes that fill gen ed requirements but are not in his major. It can be a challenge to balance how much is too much and what is worth taking just because it will be more interesting/ engaging.
There are other reasons besides getting into an elite school to challenge oneself. My D had the stats to get into some of the elite schools, but we were like you- full pay and were not quite able to afford it. However, having strong stats allowed her to get substantial merit at an LAC that is a great fit for her and where she is thriving. We are blessed to have an elite public as our state flagship, but my D just didn’t feel that is was the right place for her. She has received a lot of recognition in her first year at her college and has been nominated by professors for some special opportunities.
As I said above, she feels that she is exceptionally well prepared for college and she loves learning and is highly engaged in her education. It really is a constant balance to try to be engaged and challenged and not overly overwhelmed and stressed. Ultimately you want your D to be able to explore, expand and refine her interests and still enjoy the journey and have some relaxed unstructured time to be able to just read a book for fun, hang out with friends, etc.
It is not too early to think about college in eighth grade. It doesn’t need to be all consuming, but definitely not too early. If OP wants his daughter to go the most economic route, the best options she would have would be to get the best GPA possible so she could get merit aids. Many uninformed students/parents do not start thinking about GPA and testing until it’s too late (like junior year). I know my kids do not do as well in anything when they are not working hard. It wouldn’t hurt to make sure the daughter is focused on schoolwork as early as ninth grade - good for learning and good for getting into college.
Most high performing students do not need to kill themselves to do well in high school. If you find your kid spending too much time studying with very little result, then maybe highly competitive college is not where she belong either.
Has anyone mentioned/recommended How to Be a High School Superstar by Cal Newport. Good for the OP to read now.
If you are in CA then the UCs are a bargain. But don’t worry about it, both my kids were valedictorian in 8th grade, iirc, but one didn’t end up being top dog in high school, it’s not predictable. There’s long way to go yet.
I don’t think anyone has mentioned “How to Be a High School Superstar” on this thread, but I second that suggestion.
Yes, “How to Be a High School Superstar” by Cal Newport is a good read for sure. It makes a strong case for not spending every available moment on GPA and test prep past a certain threshold of achievement and, instead, pursuing something interesting and meaningful. Maybe my kiddo’s friends are unusual, but she started coming home and telling me how they (her girlfriends) were talking about Oxford and Yale in fifth and sixth grade! (And I don’t mean one circle of girls who know each other: multiple girls from different circles.) So, I picked up that book, thinking the advice couldn’t hurt no matter what my kids’ goals for themselves later. It’s a valuable read, though it doesn’t answer my original question about whether a quarter of a million is worth it, however one defines worth it.
Someone on this thread said something to the effect that if a kid has to kill themselves in high school to get top grades and ACT scores, and fit in all the other ECs they want to do, then perhaps they’re not top school caliber. Maybe high school has changed a lot since I went there, but my experience is that high school rewarded the kids with better memories, whereas college (beyond the 101 level) rewarded those with better reasoning skills, all else equal. This seems to fit with a study I read about that examined valedictorians’ life achievements and concluded that they were basically just really dutiful kids rather than creative thinkers who’d go on to do greater things than their competition. I’m kind of surprised few on this thread seem to think there’s a significant percentage of higher income families’ kids who are making themselves utterly miserable in high school in order to earn the privilege of paying a quarter million for a bachelor’s at a “top” college. It doesn’t match some other things I’ve read from college counselors, psychologists, and professors, but I appreciate your experiences.
Again, thanks to everyone for your comments and insights. Keep them coming!
I like this thread. The OP’s analysis is a good read and excellent food for thought. Before we had children I thought for sure that I would want my children to go to the most prestigious schools they could get into, regardless of the cost. DH would argue that I was insane, that it certainly wasn’t worth it to plunk down $160k (back then) for the same degree that you can get elsewhere for 1/2 or 1/4 as much, he has no intention of moving into a trailer park just to put our kids through college :). Now that the cost has escalated to $240k, I’m beginning to see his point more and more.
It’s not only the money, but high school is the last 4 years you will have your children with you under the same roof. Once they go to college, that is it, they’ll most likely never live with you again. Would you want your children to be constantly stressed out, running themselves ragged and never around the house to enjoy any family time together? This is why I curse this whole “holistic admissions” fiasco. Now kids not only have to take 14 APs, SAT prep, but they have to spend hours upon hours on sports or volunteer activities that exist solely to support liberal causes. Even summers can’t be just for lazing around, swimming, reading, sunning, playing, eating popsicles, going to the movies, shooting the breeze with friends or family anymore. Every summer has to be “productive”, where they either have to take advanced summer classes or get a job. High school is probably the last 4 years of their lives where they will have these carefree summers, why do our colleges insist on taking that away from our kids?
In short, I have done a complete 180 from the way I used to think about college. Not only do I no longer think prestige is worth the money or the hype, I also no longer think these colleges are worth my sacrificing quality time with my children before they go off to college. I’ve told my children they don’t need to kill themselves, only take advanced classes in subjects they are interested in, do their best in all their classes, only participate in activities that interest them, and above all we intend to continue enjoying lots of quality time together as a family before they go off to college, which will most likely be a state U in-state as they both said they would like to continue to be near us when they grow up, which is just fine by us.
I was with you up until this part. Firstly, no one has to take 14 APs or SAT prep to get into a very good school. The admissions reps from top schools have reiterated this time and time again; 4-5 APs matching the student’s interests are plenty and if a kid needs extensive SAT prep and takes it multiple times to get scores in range for elite schools, chances are they don’t belong there (not to mention that SAT prep can only impact your scores to a limited extent). I’m all for a certain amount of “lazing around”, etc but IMO, a kid who does this for every summer during high school is going to be seriously underprepared for adult life, let alone college. Getting a summer job should be part of the process of growing up and I don’t think there’s any good excuse for a kid entering college at age 18 who has never had the experience of looking for, finding and keeping a summer job. They usually require no more than 20-30 hours a week which still leaves major goofing-off time. Earning and managing money are invaluable preparation for “real life”.
I don’t even know what you are talking about with
. Since when are all volunteer activities to support "liberal causes’?
I didn’t know volunteerism was a liberal cause. Yet another reason I’m proud to be a liberal. :)>-