Profanity in Theatre

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>Hello,</p>

<p>I am one of 5Pants S's who attend Webster. I have taken the time to read many of the replies on this thread and honestly thought it would be important to hear views on what some students think about this process. Especially ones who are looking for a life in the theatre, such as myself.</p>

<p>For those of you who do not know, my twin brother and I attend Webster Conservatory in St. Louis. We actually had a whole discussion with one of my professors on the issue of not taking particular roles because they are against "morals" and "values". Well, when it comes down to it, there are parts out there for everyone, but there are more roles for those who choose to let down their "shield" and be open with ideals. If you turn down a nude hooker role because of your values, I commend you for staying strong to them, but one needs to realize as an artist your ideas of what YOU are doing are changed when you are involved with your art. It is not like you are filming a porn movie. Theatre is a business, and in order to compete you need to market yourself. </p>

<p>I personally feel everything has been sensored. I mean, even look at the Bible, over 80 books were considered for the Gospel, and they picked four! You can't tell me those other 76 plus books had nothing important to read in them. </p>

<p>Now, I also wanted to touch on the offended parent. After reading the posts, I did not see you as being attacked, but as you having your views challenged. Something, that I personally love to have done to me, because, if I cannot stick up for them, why in the world do I believe in them. You said that you don't find words such as G-- Dam- offensive in an art form, but then why do you say in your post to the young lady auditioning for CMU that you don't know what they watch on "Canadian TV" but on "American TV" you'd never hear it. If they did say it on American TV then, it would be an art form, and therefore, not be offensive right?</p>

<p>Anyways, I'd like to commend you for everything you have taken, because you are still here. It is easy for one to get up and walk away, but you choose to stick it out, and I ask you to stay, because you do believe in what you say. </p>

<p>Alot of kids use the lords name in vain, alot of adults do too. The funny thing though is, that God actually isn't only a christian "thing". He is also worshiped by the Muslims and Jewish religion. So, when it is said, how come no one ever takes "Muhammad's" name in vain, I find that an insult to the Muslim comminity, because they do believe in a god, its just they call him something different. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe his name is Allah. For one to believe God only loves christians, makes me wonder if America really sees the Bible in a loving way.</p>

<p>I apologize, for the soap box, its just that it intrigued me, and as my mom will surely agree with, I love to talk politics.</p>

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<p>freelance, you're absolutely right about burying the hatchet, but I have to say I'm reluctant to abandon this topic. It's too important to the world of performance and the world in general. I just hope we can discuss it with the civility and respect that each of us deserves. </p>

<p>thesbohemian, your intellectual fervor and talent for self-expression are marvelous. I'm sure they will carry you far in the theatre and in life. You also have -- and, yeah, I'm gonna sound like a mom here, but that's what I am -- that beautiful youthful burning need to say exactly what you think in exactly the way you want to say it. But when someone is as good with words as you are, those darts can pierce. The last thing we should want, no matter what our views, is to send someone away feeling personally wounded. If what's left is a bunch of like-minded, self-congratulatory people, we're no better than either political party or many religions.</p>

<p>mrsark87, are you still reading? If so, please stay with us. These issues are obviously important to you, and I hope you'll want to explain your views and your reasons.</p>

<p>The thing about tolerance is, it sometimes requires a thick skin. That's true whether we're in a difficult conversation or watching a show that challenges our beliefs. It's easy and comfortable -- and this is true whether we're left, right, center, fundamentalist, atheist or just dropped in from Mars -- to hang out and talk with people who share our views. But it's much more fruitful for all concerned if we widen our circles.</p>

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<p>i'm here, but not interested in posting. i see it as pointless. i just need to take those words out of my mouth again that people seem to want to put there. i never said that if g-d was said on american tv, it would be ok because it would be an art form. it is offensive to me anywhere, anytime. i merely said in response to her statement that you hear it on prime time tv, so it must be ok...........that you would not hear that on prime time tv in the states. please, if you're going to criticize me, get my facts right. and pleaseeeeeeeee, i never implied that God only loves Christians. and it really doesn't matter what others call their god. my point was simply that you don't hear "allah damn." (if you'll excuse my printing that just to make a point.) i'm merely defending my beliefs and my religion and my God. why does anyone want to criticize that? and in my mind, believing in "a" god is not the same as believing in God. ok, i'm gone again. and please don't imply that if i don't stay and stand up for myself, i don't really own my beliefs. i'm so tired of people presuming to know what i think or feel.</p>

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<p>freelance and othe CC posters!</p>

<p>I think we all agree that we would like to continue the topic of Censorship in Theatre...right? I am going to take the initiative to ask the moderator (please Collegemom?) to close this particular thread ("Profanity in Theatre") as it is a source of hard feelings and delicate issues with some people. Lets start a new. I am going to open a new thread titled "Censorship in Theatre". Hopefully we can all post our opinions on this topic without offending...it's a matter of being thoughtful and respectful of others. Let's show the true spirit of tolerance and diversity.</p>

<p>SUE</p>

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<p>Amen to that.</p>

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<p>Hear, hear. Not to mention listen, listen.</p>

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<p>as long as there are people in this world who will say the following:</p>

<p>"As for the comparison to the Nazis, if you’ll check your history, censorship and minority bashing – the topic addressed in my post - were a big part of their agenda as is the case with the current “Conservative Christian” movement in American politics. Both movements considered themselves to be engaged in a "cultural war." The mass murders didn’t start until later, but the movement definitely got started, at least in part, through the use of anti-Semitic, anti-homosexual (though several high-level Nazis were gay), and anti-anything-outside-the-norm prejudice in an unfortunately very successful cynical attempt to influence the political process. Yes, when I watch the news, I see similarities coming from those of your political persuasion and I make no apologies for lashing out against it in whatever way I can. I do suppose I'm guilty of having little tolerance for the inherently intolerant. If that's a fault, so be it. Interestingly, I often find myself in agreement with centrist Republicans on many fiscal issues. As for the quote at the end of my post, it comes directly from a Southpark episode where “Big Gay Al” describes the “enemies of the adult gay male.” It's awesome take-no-prisoners satire to those of us who appreciate such things. If you are as easily offended as you seem, I wouldn’t recommend watching it, though. Lotsa profanity to scorch virgin ears. And yes, this whole discussion is very relevant to those of us who plan to pursue a career in the arts".........thesbohemian</p>

<p>.......then i can't be a part of this discussion. these views are so very accusatory of everything i believe in and stand for that there's no way i could ever have a civil conversation with someone who feels this way. i know there are many people in this world who just hate christians and everything we believe, but i guess this is the first time i've personally be blasted like this. how ignorant to take what the liberal media chooses to publicize about our beliefs and judge us so harshly without really knowing us or what we truly stand for. i know she's probably just a kid with a head full of radical views and i actually feel rather sorry for her to hold all this bitterness. she speaks of tolerance, yet says, "so be it" if she's intolerant. now there's an intelligent statement. that just typifies this whole pattern of thinking. i want no part of it. i'll go back to the regular thread and leave you all with this "openmindedness."</p>

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<p>I'm sorry Msark - but I've been trying to be really open and tolerant of all the viewpoints expressed in this thread as has, I believe, everyone else. Except you! So long as you view everyone who has a different opinion as "attacking" you, there is no progress to be made. You feel that everyone is insulting Christian values, but it's alright for you to stereotype the media as the "liberal press." In my other post in this thread, I pleaded with you to remain involved, but after reading your numerous "decisions" to withdraw from the field of play, but not before you take one more potshot at Thesbohemian, the moderator or others who have only been tolerant and listened to your point of view without animus or throwing stones, I now think you would do well to retreat from this discussion and take a good look in the mirror - go back and read your own posts. You might learn that you have a long way to go in learning to practice what you preach.</p>

<p>I look forward to participating in the discussion of censorship in the arts in the new thread entitled "Censorship in the Theater." I so value the viewpoints of everyone here, regardless of whether or not they align with mine. We ALL have a lot to learn and the day we start thinking that life has nothing else to teach us, is the day we die.</p>

<p>Mrsark, as far as I'm concerned, don't come back until you can figure out how to play nicely.</p>

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<p>the only reason i've ever added "one more post" as in this instance is to defend myself. but, i'm perfectly happy to leave this forum. as long as anyone here doesn't see that thesbo's dissertation on the evils of christianity are an attack on my beliefs and those of millions of other christians, i'll leave you all to this "tolerant" discussion. believe me, i have enough heartache in my life right now to suffice, so i'll go back to the regular thread where the topic is simply musical theatre colleges. bye -bye</p>

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<p>My only hope is that Collegemom (moderator) will soon close this thread. It's perplexing to me that we can't put a fork it. I get the distinct impression that someone wants the last word here. Here is my suggestion: Let's let bygones be bygones....please let's not post here any more and simply let it drift to the bottom of the sea of MT CC threads. This well intended post has turned ugly and needs to just go away. Collegemom, I plead with you....close this thread. AMEN</p>

<p>SUE</p>

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<p>"the only reason i've ever added "one more post" as in this instance is to defend myself ..... as long as anyone here doesn't see that thesbo's dissertation on the evils of christianity are an attack on my beliefs and those of millions of other christians, i'll leave you all to this "tolerant" discussion." </p>

<p>How is she attacking you by expressing her constitutional right of freedom of expression? What are you REALLY trying to "defend" yourself against?</p>

<p>Thanks for proving my point. I'm done. REALLY done.</p>

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<p>I would not like to see this thread discontinued. If MsArk withdraws from the discussion then that is her choice - and the loss of her viewpoint from the discussion. I, personally, do not believe that she has been attacked in any way. I believe this has been a very civil discussion with a lot of heart-felt beliefs. I do believe feelings were hurt when that was not at all the intention. </p>

<p>I’m sure a lot of you have seen the revival staging of Cabaret. I am going to see a community production of it next week and am really looking forward to seeing it again. It can be a little (or a lot) risqué, but has such a powerful message. </p>

<p>Has anyone yet had to deal with their child doing a role that they were not comfortable with? or, has anyone, as a student, been faced with a role that they were uncomfortable with? Most of the kids that I know enjoy the challenge of doing roles that let them take chances and may be completely opposite to their own character and personality.</p>

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<p>My daughter is a junior MT major and has yet to be cast in a show that I would call family friendly. The fall of her sophmore year she was cast in Wild Party. It was a great show, but not exactly grandma friendly. I figured since she was a sophmore she'd probably be cast in the ensemble of the mainstage show that spring which was Seven Brides for Seven Brothers - a very grandma friendly show. No such luck, she was cast in Lysistrata - the sex strike. (The Germaine Greer four letter word version.) When she first read the script she said grandma is definitely not coming and I'm not so sure I want dad there either. I never imagined I would hear some of my daughter's lines coming out of her mouth, she definiteyl had some of the more shocking lines in the show, but it was a great show, and although it was very adult, it was very very funny.
So when she was cast in Hair this fall, I said YOU WILL NOT TAKE YOUR CLOTHES OFF. The nudity was optional and she was one of the few that decided not to take their clothes off. Her grandmother came and loved the show (but she would have had a hard time watching her granddaughter naked.) It was just a fabulous show!! Very moving. The nudity was such a small part of the show, that I personally don't feel it was necessary to do for a college production, but I'm sure a lot of people would dissagree with that.</p>

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<p>Cbs57,</p>

<p>Welcome back! long time no post, oh starter of this whole thread!!</p>

<p>I had to laugh when you mentioned Lysistrata. When I was a junior theater major at Cornell in the fall of 1970, I was cast as Myrrhine in a very creative studio production of Lysistrata from a contemporary translation. The director and costume designer decided that the men's costumes should include oversize phalluses (phalli?....sic) that had very pained looking puppet heads - I SAID it was contemporary. And, yes my then 68 year old grandmother came to see the production and LOVED every minute. Her openess to things totally outside her own life experience has been a model for me forever. I can only hope to be as cool a grandmother as she was.</p>

<p>PS - She and my grandfather - who started studying the Russian language in an adult education class when he was 92 - God forbid he should pick something that used arabic letters.... - were married for 75 years!! I think there may be something to this notion that remaining open and inquisitive can prolong life.</p>

<p>Another PS - the boy who played my husband in the show, grew up to be one of the founding members and Artistic Director of People's Light and Theater Company, a terrific regional equity theater here in the Philadelphia area. I showed him a production shot of the two of us from that show - he with his pained puppet phallus - and I think he would have cast me in any show I wanted in exchange for burning the picture. No deal.....Tee hee.....</p>

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<p>artsymom,
Thanks for the vote of confidence on my abilities, but when I decide to throw darts, there'll be no question that's what they are. It'll more likely be bombs. ;)</p>

<p>mrsark87,
If you would read my posts with any degree of rational comprehension or basic insight, you'd realize that I was attacking neither you nor your beliefs. It should be very clear based on the context of the discussion that my problem with "Christian Conservatives" is not their beliefs at all; but, rather their insidious motivation to force them on others through the political process. This has all too often led to attempts to renew the censure and discrimination of the past against those who do not share them. As for me being "just a kid with a head full of radical views," I'll say that you are quite wrong. I'm a kid who has learned to think for myself and see through the right and left-wing propaganda spouted by those by whom I've so often been surrounded. I'm sorry you're not an adult who has learned to do the same. I'm not "bitter," either. I do, however, feel sorry for you as being one of the legions of those who cannot rationally confront and discuss beliefs which differ from your own without the conversation degenerating into ugliness. It must be comfy inside that intellectual bubble and I can, to a degree, empathize with the anger one must feel when they realize that it can be very easily burst by those with a desire to apply their God-given sense of reason to it. I don't rely on what the "liberal media" chooses to publicize about your beliefs, either. I have first-hand experience from my family having once been members of an evangelical church. I hold nothing against anyone who believes as them up to the point that their beliefs include using the political process to force their sense of "values" on me or anybody else. </p>

<p>Georgiamom,
I've yet to be cast in a role that made me uncomfortable, but I look forward to it. :)</p>

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<p>Interesting topic, *but PLEASE leave religion and politics out of this discussion. *</p>

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<p>Our local public high school has staged a couple of musicals which contain significant adult content. One was "Les Miserables," which has an early scene devoted to the Lovely Ladies (prostitutes). My (admittedly third-hand) scuttlebut is that the director told the students early on that anyone who would be uncomfortable dressing/acting provacatively should just communicate that, and the student would be excused from the scene.</p>

<p>The school also staged "Cabaret" one year and I know several families, students as well as adults, were uncomfortable with some of the subject matter (acceptance of abortion, in particular). At least one student who had participated in all previous musicals declined to audition for this one because of this issue. </p>

<p>My kids are not very involved in MT but I have to admit the one time my D was in a high school musical (the relatively innocent "Guys and Dolls") I was taken aback by the heavy makeup on her -- so I can only imagine how I would feel about a nude scene! </p>

<p>But I do feel that in the case of "Les Mis" the overall redemptive message of the show was way more significant than the occasional off-color -- yet realistic -- moments. These scenes were not gratuitous, but significant to the theme of the musical. I can't imagine that anyone in the audience thought any less of any of students portraying the Lovely Ladies for their roles. We didn't think the kids portraying Nazis in "Cabaret" really thought like Nazis, after all!</p>

<p>So I guess I am in favor of students taking on these roles, particularly in the case of a show that communicates a worthwhile message.</p>

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<p>I've mostly tried to keep quiet, but brava to theatremom and to thesbohemian--and to most of the posters for engaging in a very thoughtful conversation. I am sorry mrsark doesn't want to remain, but that is her choice.</p>

<p>It is interesting listening to the discussion about what plays are found to be uncomfortable. It's interesting because it's not our children who are uncomfortable--and if we only reached into our memories we would realize that in high school we were reading books, seeing movies, engaging in discussions, engaging in behaviors that we seem to want to 'protect' our children from. It seems to me we'd do far better to recognize that they are going to read and see and hear and experience all kinds of things and if we can be a part of the discussion, that's good.</p>

<p>As far as play content, what could be worse than Macbeth, for violence and evil.
Or how about the Oedipus trilogy--should that also be banned from high school.</p>

<p>And since I'm ranting a bit, I think there should be more study of the Bible. How can our kids possibly understand western literature without having read the Jewish and Christian Bibles? I'm not talking theology, but I am talking about reading the text so that you can understand the allusions, recognize the language, etc. Of course that would be exposing our children to stories involving rape, warfare, incest, infanticide, genocide, etc.</p>

<p>So I guess I don't think that all high school productions have to be family fare. I only think the school needs to indicate if something isn't appropriate for younger children.</p>