Profanity in Theatre

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>Sue, I second everything you said -- though Julia Roberts has certainly skated around her own self-restriction not only with Pretty Woman but also with Closer!</p>

<p>You've opened up a new but obviously related aspect of this topic by mentioning curriculum censorship. Whether it has to do with a gay perspective or other issues, it's extremely troubling. Education should open our children's minds, not constrict them. If we've done our job as parents, our high school-age kids should know not only what our beliefs are but also why we hold them. If we've explained things well and reasonably, they'll probably share most if not all of those beliefs. But our kids have also drawn viewpoints from a lot of other sources, and they're about to go to college and out into the world. If they're going to become successul adults (by which I mean well-rounded, mature, thoughtful, interested and interesting) and, in our kids' case, successful actors, they need explosure to a wide array of views and styles. If they don't have that, how will they be able to think, to decide, to form their own well-informed -- as opposed to knee-jerk -- views? And again in our kids' case, how will they be able to create full, human characters on stage if they don't have that exposure? School systems (and of course we're talking about public school here), and the groups who push them to censor, have no business getting in the way of that. It's as if they're saying, "There's spicy food out there, and we don't like it, so we're never going to let you eat it." Are they afraid the kids won't like the spicy food? Of course not! They're afraid they WILL like it!</p>

<p>Theatermom, thanks for the nice writing comment. I can't tell you how much it pains me to see the inattention to writing in our culture. I'm not even talking about fabulous writing -- just competent, coherent, grammatically sound writing! Call me a fuddy-duddy, but it matters!</p>

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<p>The censorship issue is one that is near and dear to my heart. I like your "spicy food" analogy, artsymom, it's dead on! We've been fortunate in the high schools our Ds have attended in that the administration and teachers are not advocates of any type of censorship, nor will they allow themselves to be bullied by any outside groups. There are several gay teachers at the school and the atmosphere is one of acceptance and tolerance for everyone's inherent differences. It's truly a gem of a school and one which certainly expounds the beliefs which I've tried to instill in my children. Education is something that, I believe, should open both the minds and hearts of students. This is especially true for our kids who are interested in careers in the arts.</p>

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<p>5pants,
Good lord! In which states is this movement to ban Williams taking place? RepubliNazis, I say! Reminds me of the librarian at my grandmother's high school being arrested for refusing to remove Catcher in the Rye from the shelves. You'd think we'd be beyond that by now. Then again, some years ago, one of my teachers was performing in Angels in America in Charlotte, NC when the local elected puritans tried to yank all public funding from the theatre and engaged in all kinds of shrill, anti-gay demagoguery. Fortunately, there was a big backlash against them. Not only did ticket sales go through the roof when the situation made the papers, but all except one of them was voted out of office in the next election. Since then, Republicans running for office in that city must declare themselves "Pro-Arts" to get elected. At least the artists SOMETIMES win. I know in my own situation, I would have probably already declared for SMU if it weren't in a red state. Instead, I continue to wait ...</p>

<p>Oh, yeah ... If you haven't seen the Southpark episode "Big Gay Al's Big Gay Animal Sanctuary," it's a definite must. "Republicans, Christians, and Nazis OH MY!!!" hehehe</p>

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<p>Since it doesn't look like anyone else is going to say it, I will. Thank-you mrsark87. I agree with your views on profanity and think you were correct for pointing out the offensive post. So, that should have been the end of it. I for one, do not think this topic needs to be addressed under the "College Admission and Search" category. Seems to me that it is much more appropriate in the College Confidential Cafe, where all sorts of philosophical discussions take place. This thread has (up until now) been dedicated to the wonderful exchange between students and parents that are passionate about finding the right musical theater program. I think it is shame that this topic is discussed here. Now of course, no one is forcing me to read this thread are they?? And, I probably won't visit this particular topic again. I would encourage mrsark87 to continue to contribute to the postings on the other threads. How else will we know how your d's OCU audition went? As for profanity - I consider it a stupid and obnoxious habit that indicates a small vocabulary and weak character.</p>

<p>Just read Thesbohemian's post. So, this is what we've come to. Name calling and political bashing. What a shame.</p>

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<p>Thesbo,</p>

<p>I am so glad you are posting again.</p>

<p>Here is a link that will lead you to an article similar to what I read a couple months ago regarding the issue of censoring playwrights in the school curriculum:</p>

<p><a href="https://members.ala.org/nif/v54n1/dateline.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;https://members.ala.org/nif/v54n1/dateline.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I think one of the highlights of the Academy Awards Sunday night was Robin Williams playing off the ludicrous idea that SpongeBob Square Pants is supposedly gay. In his monologue he alluded to the fact that Donald Duck doesn't wear pants and some other similar characteristics of other cartoon icons, but did anyone think such lewd things several years ago? Who cares!!??</p>

<p>Happy reading!</p>

<p>SUE</p>

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<p>searchingmt, thank you. i know there are many, many others who feel as we do but don't want to get drawn into this. and after this post, i'm out of it. before i read your post, i had decided to post one more time after reading the bohemian's post. you said what i was going to say, that being........we have all enjoyed reading, learning, supporting and encouraging each other on this forum. it is no place for politics or religion. i am a republican and a christian. how someone can come on here and equate me with a nazi is absolutely unbelievable. i am insulted beyond belief. i am not a prejudiced murderer, which is exactly what that implies. it takes a very small, limited mind to think like that. they think they are so tolerant but are the perfect opposite of tolerance, tolerating everything and everyone one except those who disagree with them. if the moderators don't put a stop to this thread after that post, i will leave this forum permanently. and that would be a real shame. it's been a respite and a sanctuary for me while we go through this audition process. now, i don't even know what to call it, but it is a source of conflict and hatred rather than a peaceful escape. if this is what the people in this forum support and stand for then i want no part of it.</p>

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<p>While Thesbohemian's post has a strong political slant, I did not come away after reading it thinking she was calling any POSTERS on here any names. Perhaps I read it differently. She espoused her political viewpoint. </p>

<p>SearchingMT, I do not think this topic belongs in the Cafe. ALL of the CC forums are under the heading "College Admission and Search" by the way. The Musical Theater topic USED to be under the Forum entitled "College Search and Selection". This winter, CC made a new forum for College Majors. Under that heading, a Forum for Musical Theater Majors was created. This is that forum. As such, anything related to College Musical Theater belongs here. The cafe is for totally unrelated topics. This forum often deals with selection of colleges for this major, the audition process and other related topics. Discussing musical theater itself and performances and related issues does belong here. Some topics interest some people and some do not. </p>

<p>I think for the most part, people do try to use appropriate discourse that is civil. Various viewpoints are welcomed. We do enforce the terms of service. If someone were to call someone else on here a name, that would not be tolerated. I did not observe that.</p>

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<p>CollegeMom,
Thank you for your tactful response to this heated issue. I absolutely agree that this discussion is very relevant for this forum, as the ideas raised here are very much a part of a performance career. One of theatre's most provacative aspects is the ability to create questions, new perspectives, a different way of viewing the world. It is through the power of live performance that most people feel moved to think about life differently from before. These young budding actors are the ones who will be facing the challenge of presenting a huge array of viewpoints to an audience. I celebrate a point of view that embraces the importance and responsibity this necessitates.
We do need to be aware of how we express strong ideas so that an atmosphere of respect is maintained. However I have found nothing offensive stated here, and hope that this discussion can continue so all "sides" can learn and grow.</p>

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<p>collegemom, when bohemian wrote "Republicans, Christians, and Nazis OH MY!!!" hehehe" he most definitely equates republicans and christians with nazis. at best, the implication is there that we all belong together. how you can condone that is beyond comprehension. i can't even put into words the offense that i take to that phrase. this has nothing to do with a college search on musical theatre and there will be many who are offended by this and they will leave this forum. they won't come online and tell you, they will just quietly go away, which is what i am doing. if our moderator supports this kind of language, then this is no longer an escape for me. good bye.</p>

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<p>monkey, apparently you are not a republican or a christian. if so, i think you would object to being grouped with nazis. this thread may have started out as a discussion. it has degenerated to bashing beliefs.</p>

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<p>p.s. to thesbo.....regarding your interest in smu. yes, we are a red state and all of us republicans and christians are quite content to do without your presence here.</p>

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<p>mrsark87,
And to think I’m considered the conservative one among my artsy friends ... LOL </p>

<p>I don’t think the term “RepubliNazi” is any more offensive than Rush Limbaugh repeatedly referring to those sharing my viewpoint as “FemiNazis.” As for the comparison to the Nazis, if you’ll check your history, censorship and minority bashing – the topic addressed in my post - were a big part of their agenda as is the case with the current “Conservative Christian” movement in American politics. Both movements considered themselves to be engaged in a "cultural war." The mass murders didn’t start until later, but the movement definitely got started, at least in part, through the use of anti-Semitic, anti-homosexual (though several high-level Nazis were gay), and anti-anything-outside-the-norm prejudice in an unfortunately very successful cynical attempt to influence the political process. Yes, when I watch the news, I see similarities coming from those of your political persuasion and I make no apologies for lashing out against it in whatever way I can. I do suppose I'm guilty of having little tolerance for the inherently intolerant. If that's a fault, so be it. Interestingly, I often find myself in agreement with centrist Republicans on many fiscal issues. As for the quote at the end of my post, it comes directly from a Southpark episode where “Big Gay Al” describes the “enemies of the adult gay male.” It's awesome take-no-prisoners satire to those of us who appreciate such things. If you are as easily offended as you seem, I wouldn’t recommend watching it, though. Lotsa profanity to scorch virgin ears. And yes, this whole discussion is very relevant to those of us who plan to pursue a career in the arts.</p>

<p>As to your p.s., who's the one who can't discuss an issue without getting personal? I also recall you posting something about "nude sluts." tisk tisk! :)</p>

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<p>mrsark87
It's that actual South Park episode title, not a reference to anyone individually. Take a deep breath and please take to your heart that no one is attacking you here. This is a safe place for discussion of ANY sort in the Arts realm (cafe' or thread ) and your individual beliefs, which I am confident, have not been altered by the exchange but you seem to have a part in the degeneration of this topic into the questioning or "bashing" beliefs. Be well and please don't withdraw from what I would also judge as sensible discourse. Especially, thesbo's, which may have thrown out some modern cultural references that you did not understand, but was clearly no attack on you individually. Perhaps you should review some of thesbohemians previous posts from which you can get a better sense of the youthful irreverence (much applauded by this dad) that is part of her posting style and once again, not directed at you! We don't play that here.</p>

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<p>I do not believe any rules have been broken here. I think one poster used very strong political wording in her post. However, I don't have to share her political persuasion one way or another but I think she was just stating it, albeit a bit over the top. I did not see any poster calling other posters any names. I read the quote by bohemian as a quote from a SouthPark TV show, though I have never watched that show. I thought she was suggesting to watch it and she was quoting a line from the show. That is how I read it. I did not think she was equating any religious or political groups as Nazis, as that would be name calling. </p>

<p>I think that we need to be tolerant of ALL political and other viewpoints even if these run quite contrary to our own beliefs. I realize some are offended by such beliefs or viewpoints in either direction. As long as nobody is calling someone else on here a name or otherwise violating the rules, we do allow a variety of viewpoints, even if to one extreme or another, to be discussed. </p>

<p>In this particular instance, I believe the poster was quoting a TV show that has a political slant and those were not her own words. </p>

<p>Tolerance goes both ways. We must all respect the various leanings of one another here. We want everyone to feel comfortable posting and reading here but we cannot guarantee that you won't come across viewpoints that run extremely contrary to your own. But we do enforce the posting rules of proper posting etiquette. Proper etiquette, however, does not include only one viewpoint or persuasion.</p>

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<p>Thesbo, Well stated, but time to let it go and protect your own blood pressure. Clearly, the other party is prepared to lead us into more vitriolic exhanges, which is definitely inappropriate here.</p>

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<p>When I first read Freelance’s opening to this thread, I was dismayed because I knew the kind of storm it would start. I teach college literature and see firsthand how debates of this kind flare into emotional wars. These conversations can degenerate if they aren’t “moderated” hands-on and conducted face-to-face; obviously, this sort of discussion won’t work online for the same reasons that we shouldn’t handle personal disagreements with friends and relatives by email. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, because these subjects are of particular interest to me, I wanted to address Sue's (was it you, Sue?) point about censorship. Sometimes I teach“book censorship.” The first surprise my students encounter from their study is the extent of censorship at work at all times in this country. The second surprise is that censorship is often from a small group or even one person. Schools generally buckle when faced with one complaining parent–very often that parent hasn't even read the book in question. Sometimes the teachers themselves do worse than this–they self-censor by deciding against books which are controversial simply because they do not want to make waves. The third surprise students experience is finding that censorship stems from a wide variety of beliefs, from far left to far right. I had an experience with this from a firsthand position. When my children were in elementary school, a book with a racist perspective was being taught. The school regarded the book as a classic because it was taught by an acclaimed children's writer. When I read the book, I was horrified and immediately contacted the school. I thought because my concern was sincere and my beliefs (against racism) were right that the school would immediately get rid of the book. This didn't happen, however, because this particular school did not want to cave to pressure from a parent. They felt that it would set a dangerous precedent. If someone then wanted to ban books such as Maya Angelou's <em>I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings</em> (because it's about the experiences of a non-white girl) or Anne Frank's <em>The Diary of a Young Girl</em> (because it's about the experiences of a non-Christian girl), they would have more “ammunition.” BTW, these are actual reasons that these two books have been banned in our country. The end result was that the school did the smart thing: they re-evaluated their book choices and made better selections by creating rationales for each book taught. The racist book disappeared; it wasn’t censored, but it didn’t make the cut when faced with high quality books that fulfilled the same goals the other book did without the embedded racism.</p>

<p>When I went through this situation with my children’s school, I experienced hurt and anger throughout the process of working with the school. I also had to do a lot of soul searching. But I came away from that experience with mixed feelings. I always thought book banners were the “bad guys,” and here I had turned into one of them–albeit, for a “good” reason, IMO. I had to face that fact, though, that censorship was not an answer, even for such a blatantly racist book. That doesn’t mean that the book was a good choice for a 4th grade classroom. It was an extremely poor choice. But what a wonderful thing that the school had that choice! </p>

<p>Last year my D’s high school performed <em>Chess</em>. During the “Bangkok” scene, many people stood up and left. They were outraged that a high school performed such a risque musical. Our principal defended the right of the drama teacher to produce the show. I had a talk with the musical director when he was bummed by how parents responded to high school girls playing Bangkok prostititues. We started listing all the musicals with prostitutes as characters. The list was LONG, and it included <em>Jesus Christ, Superstar</em>. Although I was sorry that people walked out during <em>Chess</em>, and I do not agree with those people at all, I believe they have the right to do so without being labeled as horrible people. I think they even have the right to complain to the principal without being labeled as horrible people. But I’m especially glad that the principal had the right to support the drama teacher and all the kids that worked so hard on that show and were so proud of it.</p>

<p>P.S. to Mrsark87: Remember that different generations are chatting on these threads. If you don't like the way one teen responded to your viewpoint, please keep it in perspective. You might have insulted as many people as Thesbo and JesseE. did with your comment about God. Remember that God isn't necessarily only Christian, as you posted on the CMU thread mentioned.</p>

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<p>Well stated. Please, Now that I started this whole thread, please let's agree to disagree. Let us make peace, bury the hatchet and go on to discuss all MT college issues.</p>

<p>PLEASE!!</p>

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<p>mtmommy,</p>

<p>Yes, it was me that brought up the issue of censorship in literature. Thank you for the helpul insight through your first hand experiences.</p>

<p>freelance,</p>

<p>I still am glad you started this thread. It has been an eye opener for a lot of various reasons. Our sons and daughters will encounter a vast array of plays/scripts through their theatre experiences in college and hopefully as working actors. It's good to have issues out on the table and discuss them...in a peaceful manner.</p>

<p>To all reading....we are under a large umbrella in this forum...let's respect our differences.</p>

<p>SUE</p>

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<p>I won't repeat what others have already written except to say bravo to those trying to engage in this discussion, because it is very difficult to discuss something like this on a format that is totally dependent upon quickly written comments. Much can be misinterpreted.</p>

<p>What no one has brought up, however, in discussing roles, profanity, etc, is the play. I think the overall ideas that a playwright is concerned with, would affect how I would feel about a particular role. Thus, playing a Nazi in a musical like "Cabaret" might be perfectly fine, whereas playing a Nazi in something that promoted white supremicists would not be fine. Although I'm coming from a very different place than mrsark, I agree that one mustshould behave according to one's beliefs. I'll repeat myself, however, in saying that the wonderful thing about the arts, is that we learn that the world is a richer place because there are so many viewpoints.</p>

<p>And for those of us who are parents, this is a wonderful opportunity for us to model how to engage in civil conversation for those who are younger. So I hope this thread continues</p>

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<p>newmtmom: It's interesting that you brought up Cabaret. Last year my daughter's school put on Cabaret. She goes to a Catholic High School and there was quite a big deal from some parishoners about the school allowing such a show to be put on! First, there were threats of a candlelight vigil to be held outside the play to protest the choice of such a show. Next "they" threatened to buy tickets, come into the show and turn their chairs backwards to show a silent protest of the contents. Unfortunately, I don't believe these individuals understood the meaning and background of the musical. When practices first began for the show, the director had a History professor who gave a personal family account of Nazi Germany. It really helped all the kids understand the importance and seriousness of this show. Another thing the director did was to end the show with the cast walking into the gas chambers. There were no final bows. The audience was left "thinking". What about our "silent protesters"? Well, no one showed up, for one. For another....ticket sales went through the roof. In fact, the media grabbed a hold of the threats, it got spread all the way to Hawaii via the AP, and even Jay Leno made a joke about it.</p>