<p>Quant: I should clarify…my S situation is more difficult because he is pursuing a language minor in addition to the ME degree. The department for this language is very small and course options are limited in that some are only offered once a year. H is committed to the minor (tested out of the first two years of language requirements which is really the only reason he can even pursue this path and still finish in 4 years).</p>
<p>That said, as you know…it is often not just a case of changing the lecture …it is convoluted by the fact that these courses have associated labs. Often making a change in Physics 1,2,3 etc requires an overhaul of the entire schedule which is to put it mildly, difficult. If your on a quarter system - then even more so. If the student gives it a fair shot - say two weeks of classes - then they are already 1/5 of the way through the term. NOW try changing an entire schedule. Not saying it’s not possible, but saying it puts an undue burden on a student.</p>
<p>S had two cases his very first quarter. Luckily calc was all review and he basically learned from the book. In the case of Chem, he showed up for office hours a couple of times each week. But even then, office hours are often in conflict with class schedules. </p>
<p>I’m all for having our young’uns figure things out…(just made D work through the whole health insurance in/out of net debacle on her own - makes Physics look easy :)) But in the end, it is the responsibility of the institution to place appropriately capable bodies in front of the students. In the university/student relationship each side carries responsibility.</p>
<p>It is a novel line to me, gleaned form this thread, that actually the all-knowing universities, in their world class wisdom, are deliberately putting barely comprehensible teachers in front of the students, as part of their education for an international future.</p>
<p>Then what are all of the “special topics” graduate level seminars for? Or faculty going to conferences where they present research findings to each other?</p>
<p>The “special topics” graduate level seminars are courses to teach graduate students about a special topic in depth (usually direct from academic journal papers), it has nothing to do with assessment for tenure. Incomprehensible oral presentations at conferences are rather common, and also not part of a tenure dossier.</p>
<p>Conference presentations are part of the profession. Years ago I was in a department that voted overwhelming against hiring a very qualified professor, English speaker, when they found out the lack of conference presentations on his vita (resume) was not an omission, but an absence. People had assumed because he had so many publications that he hadn’t bothered with conference, but felt very differently about him for not going to conferences. May be they considered him anti-social, but I was a bit surprised. . . So conferences are considered in hiring, and I suspect in tenuring, though not in linear ways.</p>
<p>Attending conferences, and in particular being inviting to attend, is indeed a (minor) part of a tenure case. But the oral English quality, or the amount of actual information being transmitted, at the conference is not.</p>
<p>Please, please, do not start false rumors. This CC audience has repeatedly been told that the rumors about such lectures with people sitting in the aisles are just figments of our vivid imagination – just like Cobrat’s endless accounts of friends and relatives. </p>
<p>The applicable memo regarding Cal around here is that there are no large lecture halls, that there is no problem whatsoever to sign up for classes or find seats, and most importantly, that there are no TAs (or whatever fancy names they receive) engaged in … teaching or grading. Never. Ever. /smile</p>
<p>I am thinking about the difference of perspectives we are bringing to this discussion and trying very hard to remember if my kids ever complained of not being able to understand a college teacher. I do not think so. Once I went to visit my scientist kid at his lab, where he had been several semesters, and realized for the first time he was the only native English speaker in the entire lab. He had never mentioned it. I started thinking about that and about the fact my husband and I always had lots of friends in our home while the kids were growing up who weren’t native English speakers, and that the kids always had lots of friends who weren’t native speakers. In this type of situation, an amazing and hysterical stand-up routine of the professor speaking in really awful English would not be something to bring down the house at our cocktail parties. Again, we bring very different perspectives to this discussion.</p>
<p>I am thinking it is possible my kids were not put off by accents which might have been a challenge to other students with a different sort of background coming into college.( Several other posters have already said this in several other ways. I am just repeating. : ) ) I don’t know. It just wasn’t an issue for us, for whatever reason. But my kids did drop classes. Overall, I guess I consider it a positive for my kids to know non-native English speakers.</p>
<p>Several posters are very concerned they aren’t getting their money’s worth out of the university. I sympathize. There seems to be a concern over this accent issue and it seems a really good idea to me that when students are doing college visits and tours and visit classes, that should be something they especially check out. It is correct it is not easy to transfer. It is much easier to select the correct “fit” in the first place. </p>
<p>When students end up in these classes where the teacher is unintelligible, did they do any investigation beforehand? We instructed our kids not to take classes with graduate students unless that was the only option. (yes, sometimes graduate students are great teachers but all things being equal we prefer the tuition be spent on more senior level instruction - ymmv) We told them to check out the teacher’s background, ask other students for recommendations, check those professor ratings sites (with a grain of salt) For the fields in which they intended to major, they had met the faculty during their pre-application visits and again during admitted student visits. There really should have been very few surprises.</p>
<p>I am okay with all these consumer analogies. So - Caveat Emptor! Don’t wait till you’ve already purchased the car to check the tires and under the hood. : )</p>
<p>To be hired for a faculty position at my university, a candidate has to give a research seminar and respond to questions, and give a one-hour + talk on research plans (and respond to questions), and meet one-on-one with about 15 faculty members. No one who is incomprehensible would pass this screen, no matter what their publications were. This is pretty standard for research universities.</p>
<p>If a professor is genuinely incomprehensible, at the level of “didn’t understand a word” the professor said, that should be evident on Day 1, when it’s still possible to change. If re-scheduling is impossible, then the student should be advised to talk to the department administrator in charge of undergraduate education, or to the chairperson, if there isn’t an associate chair with the specific responsibility. At the very least, the student should be asking someone for help after the first lecture.</p>
<p>I had another thought about advice we might give our kids to avoid the situation in the original post AND to avoid having to change classes or sections. How about going to meet with teachers before you sign up for next term’s classes? If you can’t understand them, don’t sign up for that class. </p>
<p>I confess I’m pretty proud of this solution. </p>
<p>^Sometimes the class is required. But while I sympathize I think it’s pretty rare that it’s the professors who are the problem. A handful of TAs I can believe. I have a friend who came to this country as a grad student from the PRC in the early 80s. He speaks fluent English, but I have to admit, even now, when he speaks quickly and I’m not paying attention, I can realize I haven’t really processed a word he’s said. </p>
<p>I fully support the idea of helping people reduce their accents, but as someone who worked very, very hard to speak perfect German, for most people there is a limit to what you can do. I worked very, very hard on German, and got to the point where I could fool people for about the length of time it took to say “Architecture Office XY, can I help you?”</p>
<p>^An unintelligible teacher, in a required class, where there are no other sections available is a perfect storm type situation that I do have trouble believing. However, I have absolutely no experience with public universities in CA. Maybe it happens there. Not at my kids’ colleges. No way.</p>
<p>No one listen to sorghum I assure you he/she knows nothing about PT decisions in the sciences! The comments are laughable! The number of outside speaking engagements not playing a major role in the decision? Thanks for making me laugh! I guess we’ve (and every other research university) have been doing it wrong all these years! I guess I need to go back and re-write all those pt evaluation letters I have written for other universities. </p>
<p>Oh that is understandable … because that takes quite some practice:
Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz, Wie kann ich Ihnen helfen? </p>
<p>There are no ACTUAL colleges where this is a big problem and where the administration refuses to help the poor kids who are drowning in a sea of professors who cannot speak English or speak with a heavy accent or mumble. BUT we hear it’s a big problem in California.</p>
<p>California is a pretty big place. Exactly which campuses in California have this problem of “impossible to understand” professors and an administration which refuses to provide an alternative professor/class/section?</p>
<p>Where’s the data here? My nephew’s friends girlfriend said it was a big problem so it must be. We have no documented case of a provost telling an undergrad “Buzz Off” when he/she complained. We have no documented case of a Dean of Students telling a kid, “tough luck” because the professor had a heavy accent and the alternative section was over-subscribed. We have no documented case of a kid graduating a semester late because he missed his pre-req sequence due to a series of unintelligble professors.</p>
<p>And I’M the one who doesn’t have empathy for struggling students??? I’m prepared to mount a letter/internet campaign to help these poor kids. But I need to know which college administration refuses to help their beleaguered undergrads!!!</p>
<p>blossom: I would like to sign that petition. If we can figure out where to send it.</p>
<p>Some of the most vehement critics, here on this thread, of these hypothetical unintelligible professors admit to having no first hand knowledge of such a situation. They are just defending the OP’s friend’s daughter’s report. Which is pretty third hand at best. Assuming it is true. I am willing to believe it is true. I think Hunt has a good point there. But I don’t believe everything I read. Especially on the internet. : )</p>
<p>It seems to me this thread has provided excellent advice to anyone who might find themselves in such a situation. And that is a good thing.</p>
<p>I can believe there are plenty of professors who are hard to understand at times. And students have plenty of options to deal with this. Look at what’s written on the board or that powerpoint. Maybe the few words you just missed are right there. The equation should be. Does the prof provide lecture notes? Same thing. How about a study group–maybe the other kid understood what you didn’t parse. Go to office hours or see the TA to fill in the gaps in your notes? Record the lectures or view the school’s recording and see if it makes more sense on replay?</p>
<p>It seems to me that this discussion suggests that if a student finds himself in a class with an unintelligible teacher, he should either find a way to get out or somehow, work around it. If he complains, it appears there is a pretty good chance he won’t be believed, or will be blamed for his inability to understand.</p>
<p>You emphasized the quality of oral English that the candidate used at conferences?</p>
<p>I know perfectly well what I am talking about. A normal spectrum of conference participation, which does not require English at a level to be a competent teacher, is sufficient. Peer-reviewed publications outweigh conference activities by far.</p>
<p>This is not a new situation, it has been going on for a long time, my brother faced it in the late 70’s at Columbia, I faced it at NYU. Growing up where my grandparents were immigrants and spoke relatively broken English, and living in the NYC area where there are people from all over you have to communicate with, I am familiar with listening closely and understanding with less than stellar speaking, as was my brother, and we both ran into TA’s and even professors who were practically unintelligible. What might work one on one when you are in a lecture hall or classroom won’t work. I had one class where I ended up teaching myself one of the calc class courses, because frankly it was a waste of time going to class. </p>
<p>In all fairness, I had quite a few instructors who were not native English speakers, and the overwhelming majority of them were fine in communicating, in large part because they recognized their accent/language ability could make it hard to be understood so they made sure to be as clear as possible, the bad ones were the ones who failed to recognize that and make accommodations.</p>