<p>I think you are absolutely correct. Changing colleges is nothing like changing pharmacies. My three step advice did not include changing colleges. Instead one of my suggestions was changing the class. I suggested: 1) complaining through proper channels 2) changing sections 3) meeting professors before signing up for their classes. Colleges expect students to change classes. That is why there are drop/add periods. I don’t blame you if you have quit reading all my posts. First I was repeating the advice of others and now I am repeating myself. </p>
<p>{At this time I picture blossom, if she is still reading, walking over to the nearest wall to bang her head}</p>
<p>It seems this is merely a hypothetical for you. Your kids are at top schools and haven’t experienced this problem. In my opinion if any family, in your situation, goes through through the process you describe: <a href=“research,%20visitation%20trips,%20applications,%20admit%20days,%20and%20final%20decision”>i</a>, write $60K/yr checks* and ends up with less “bang for the buck” than they anticipated, where they don’t have the option of excellent teachers for their kids in almost every class, I think that family has only themselves to blame. A family in that situation has almost unlimited options for their kids. If the family thinks the diploma is worth the money but the education isn’t “all that” - it’s a definite dilemma. </p>
<p>ALH, so happy someone is worried for my poor bald spot. Carry on!</p>
<p>To the group- this discussion would really be more fruitful if we made a list of “things your kids can do to maximize their education” instead of trying to identify the three colleges in America that don’t have any physics professors or the mythical college where an entire chemistry class went an ENTIRE semester without understanding a single word the professor said. And not a single one of them complained to the department chair or tried to switch to another class.</p>
<p>@alh - Yes, it is a hypothetical to me, but I can see how it can be a issue. </p>
<p>You also stated, “If the family thinks the diploma is worth the money but the education isn’t “all that” - it’s a definite dilemma.”</p>
<p>You seem to misunderstand what I said. I never said the education is not “all that.”</p>
<p>There are two different issues here. It is very different to say the education is worth the money, which I said it is - I stated that I agree the ABSOLUTE value of going to college is the education. It is another issue to have said education have real world trade-able value. </p>
<p>These two concepts can exist in the same family at the same time because the concepts address different aspects of education: 1) learning for the sake of advancing one’s knowledge and 2) a possible real-world return on said knowledge, which really only the diploma allows to happen. In order to fulfill #2, one IS paying for the diploma. </p>
<p>Now, if one is only going to college for the knowledge sake, that is just fine, but one should then also understand that the knowledge / education without the diploma is not considered highly when one is applying for a job. </p>
<p>Hey, even if you’re only going to the college for the knowledge, you might feel cheated if the college isn’t conveying the knowledge effectively.</p>
<p>Sorry to hear that the college with a single physics professor, on sabbatical, and a crummy adjunct was a real situation. I would recommend that pre-med students check out the number of faculty in ancillary departments, who teach courses they will need for med school. This would include chemistry and physics. </p>
<p>I think Marymount was an example offered by ucbalumnus, and wasn’t the locale of the problem However, Marymount has 2 professors of “physical science” as far as I can make out from their web site, no professors of physics, and 2 professors of chemistry. That is an awfully small number of faculty in those areas. They may be successful in getting students into med school nonetheless. But the fact that Marymount offers only 2 physics courses (both first-year level) should be detectable before one invests $60,000. It suggests that physics is a low priority for the college/students.</p>
<p>Thanks for posting this, Hunt. Here is a good example of students switching out of sections when they have difficulty understanding teachers. Yale is a better example than many, imho, because of the shopping period. They expect students to find the courses and teachers which suit them best. They can switch classes during this time for any reason whatsoever. </p>
<p>I agree with you that even at Yale (and other “top” schools) there will be “incomprehensible” teachers. Your definition, my definition and awcntdb’s definition of an incomprehensible teacher may have little in common. Mamalion, and probably some others, believe exposure to accents is a positive. Our kids don’t have to take classes with incomprehensible teachers. If it turns out all the teachers in the student’s proposed course of study are incomprehensible, or the professor the student went there especially to work with is incomprehensible, that just wasn’t very good pre-college planning. imho</p>
<p>fwiw - I think what you experienced during your freshman year was really bad.</p>
<p>^^ There is a problem with this knowing such details in advance before investment and attending, i.e., 50% of students change majors. If a student researches a college to death, but then change majors, he might still get an unwanted surprise.</p>
<p>Even though Yale does have a shopping period, switching from one class to another is not always so easy. There can be lots of timing conflicts, and many of the sections fill up. And since we’re talking about intro sections that are often taught by TAs, you may not be able to find out anything about the teacher until you go to the first class. So you may decide to just muddle through somehow (which is what I did–I can’t recall, at this late date, why I didn’t switch out).</p>
<p>I doubt if anybody would deny that it’s possible to end up with a few teachers who are duds, whether it has anything to do with their accent or not. Clearly, avoid them in the first place is preferable, followed by switching out. I don’t know if complaining or muddling through is the best final option, though. I guess it depends on just how bad the problem is, and whether others in the class are having the same problem.</p>
<p>awcntdb: I know you can imagine this situation. But do you know anyone who researched a college to death and then changed majors and got an unwanted surprise? And if so, was there no acceptable major available to change into with comprehensible teachers?</p>
<p>@alh You seem to be taking distinctions that in reality have no difference. Incomprehensible is just that incomprehensible, and it limits and reduces learning. Pick your reason for the incomprehension; it does not matter the reason. </p>
<p>Just because someone thinks exposure to accents is a beneficial thing, does not mean it is beneficial to the learning of said information by students. It is interesting that the actual purpose of a specific course is given a back seat by some. </p>
<p>@alh - I am a scientist by nature and by formal education, so I literally live in the hypothetical. </p>
<p>Therefore, having to know someone in a particular situation is not a necessary criteria to understand or discuss an issue. I deal with hypotheses all the time.</p>
<p>To answer your second question - The issue is not an acceptable major, but what if the condition occurs in the specific major that the student wants? </p>
<p>“Incomprehensible” is in the ears of the hearer. Your kid does not have to take a course from an incomprehensible teacher. </p>
<p>If mamalion thinks exposure to the accents of non-native English speakers in the classroom is a positive in a university and you think it is a negative, you can each advise your kids to choose their classes in a way that fits into your family’s philosophy. You each have that power. You get to choose how you want your kids educated. (not every parent may have that choice.)</p>
<p>At one point in my life a Boston accent was incomprehensible.</p>
<p>I have looped right back to one of my first posts and think I’m done. </p>
<p>We can all deal in hypotheticals. What if my kid gets to U Mass and can’t find a single department he wants to major in? Boy, those state schools are sure a rip-off. What if my kid gets to Columbia and discovers that the core is filled with boring books about wars that were fought a long time ago written by dead white men? Wow, that Columbia is sure a terrible school that doesn’t care about its students. What if my D gets to RPI and discovers that most of the professors are male but she really needs strong female role models in order to reach her potential in engineering? Man, I’m so frosted at RPI for taking my money (and we’re full pay!) and not caring about my D.</p>
<p>Doesn’t make me a scientist to want to deal in hypotheticals which have no basis in reality. Frankly, it makes me a jerk for trashing three perfectly wonderful universities based on flimsy and/or ridiculous assertions.</p>
<p>The logic that maybe, sometime in the past, perhaps in the future, a kid might have a professor who he/she can’t understand, and the administration might/could be slow to come up with a solution, and therefore we all need to bash the US educational system for allowing in incomprehensible professors and grad students… wow. Where’s the logic in the absence of facts? Which kid, which university? I’m still ready to write the Provost once you tell me which university is unwilling to fix this huge and systemic problem. Oh right Yale- from an article in 2006.</p>
<p>I am curious if other posters think that the reaction should be any different if the professor with the difficult-to-understand accent has a Mexican accent, and the students are in a region with a relatively small Latino population (assuming that the person speaks fluently, but does have a strong accent, and the students do have trouble with it).</p>
<p>I think any professor who gets complaints ought to at least try to work on the accent. I do think for most western ears a Spanish accent is less difficult to get used to than some Asian accents. That said, often it just takes a little time. </p>
<p>QM: I think this accent issue is probably a parent issue not a student issue. Isn’t one of the pluses people talk about when they talk about benefits of top schools the international community? They like that their kids are exposed to non-native English speakers. It’s a selling point, right?</p>
<p>I know so many young people from so many colleges and have never heard a one of them complain about a teacher’s accent. (mumbling and low talking - yes) I’d say a pretty good portion of my own kids’ friends are non-native speakers. From everyplace.</p>