Profs who cannot speak English

Parents Forum
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<p>I am going to now call CC a factory for straw men makers. Many posters crack me up in how they lose complete position of arguments and just make stuff up. </p>

<p>@cobrat and the other poster who used the gym and high school teaching reference and think it makes little sense to expect you get what you pay for:</p>

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<li>No one ever said anyone expects teaching in college to be like high school - not one person. Nice straw man there.</li>
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<p>So, let’s get back to the actual issue of the OP - exactly what part of UNINTELLIGIBLE professor do you not get? </p>

<p>In simple English, it means NOT understandable. If a professor is not understandable, then there is little to no teaching going on!</p>

<p>This has zilch to go with high school and handholding. It deals directly with the fundamental issue of there is little to no actual COMPREHENSIBLE teaching.</p>

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<li>The gym membership analogy cracks me up, but I understand what you were trying to say, but your analogy is flawed given the issue. Remember the issue is UNINTELLIGIBLE professors. Keep that in mind please.</li>
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<p>First, the economic comparison is ludicrous.</p>

<p>Hum… Our gym membership costs my entire family $960/yr. </p>

<p>Starting this September, the costs for two kids in college, including travel home on holidays etc., will cost us more than $138,000/yr. </p>

<p>How does a person’s brain even think that for $138,000/yr that the payer should not have real expectations of the teaching one is paying for? Really, I can not even wrap my brain around that thought. </p>

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<li>Overall gym analogy:</li>
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<p>An accurate analogy to the gym would be if you go to the gym and pieces of the equipment are not functioning, as they should. For $138,000K, I damn sure expect my kids’ professors to function properly and that means being INTELLIGIBLE. </p>

<p>A proper gym analogy is for $960/yr I expect the pieces of equipment I pay for to function properly, so I can get full use of them. I do not expect to have to work around and make up my own stuff for broken machines. It also follows for $138,000/yr, I expect the equipment, i.e., professors who I pay to teach my kids, to function properly, which means being intelligible.</p>

<p>An UNINTELLIGIBLE professor is analogous to a BROKEN piece of gym equipment. I would not accept broken gym equipment for $960/yr. Then why in the world would I accept a broken professor for $138,000/yr? Well, I would not. I expect INTELLIGIBLE professors just as I expect FUNCTIONING gym equipment</p>

<p>I understand we all raise our kids differently and more than one approach works in raising great kids. If you think an unintelligible professor helps your kid grow in college, cool. My checkbook says otherwise.</p>

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<p>If the $69,000 per year colleges are so bad, perhaps your kids should transfer to better or cheaper ones. After all, that is a way that they and you can show dissatisfaction with the service.</p>

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<p>awcntdb I can see why you and others would think this way. Those who teach college students and observe classroom behavior can see the validity of the metaphor and apply it to the discussion. </p>

<p>The perception of unintelligible is a function of a professors “performance”, but also the students preparedness and attention span during class. Every discipline has jardon, terminology and concepts that can be difficult to grasp, especially if the phrase or word is encountered first in class. If students do not come prepared, which could simply mean reading the notes before class (usually provided prior to class on line these days), or heaven forbid the text/packet associated with the course, their ability to understand is greatly reduced. Now, let’s add a poor attention span and constant monitoring of texts or switching over from the lecture notes to an unrelated website. Never, never, underestimate the affect this activity has. When I do peer teaching reviews (some foreign born instructors) and sit among the students…. what an eye opener! You should do it sometime. Parents (I guess this includes me ) if you want your student to get more out of college, don’t pay for unlimited data/messaging! I digress.
Back to the topic. If the professor is not American born, most students jump to the conclusion that their lack of understanding is because the instructor is unintelligible because of his/her language skills. Why? well of course it’s not their fault. They are smart. their parents told them so and dream U gave them all this “merit aid” to stroke their egos. They got in “A” in less challenging classes, so something must be wrong here. If the professor is American born, well he/she is just bad.
Another poster, who agreed with my metaphor suggested animosity or anti foreign sentiment. That might be true in some cases, but I think a larger cause is a lack of exposure/familiarity to people who don’t sound like they do. My experiences outside of the university are that people I work with in the community have significant difficulties understanding people with slight to moderate foreign accents. I think nothing of it being exposed to many foreign born colleagues AND students.
One more thing that people haven’t brought up is that large classrooms are difficult to teach in due to acoustics or quality of audio equipment. This too may make an instructor with an accent less clear.
Some have brought up examples of TAs in lab classes. This happens more frequently. Some examples people wrote about had more to do with attitudes, formed by cultural exposure, of the TAs rather than English skills. At my university TAs must pass language courses. In my own graduate program we have failed/dismissed students for not performing well as TAs. When this occurs it is more related to attitudes rather than language issues. So suggestions from people that universities don’t care are hogwash. </p>

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<p>@ucbalumnus - The thread is so long you probably did not see where I said my kid in college never had this problem. However, it does not impede me from understanding what a student and parent experiencing this feels like and also that I would not like it and would have my kids do something about it. </p>

<p>Additionally, I never said expensive colleges are bad, as I was solely addressing the unintelligible professor situation of the OP. And I did not even imply expensive colleges were bad overall; I was addressing a singular issue. So, let’s not make my argument more systemic and larger than I ever did. </p>

<p>In general, I agree with you about if one does not like a business, then just take your business elsewhere. I do that all the time and always get better service elsewhere. But, college is unique in how it impacts a student’s life and the effort that goes into choosing one and paying for it means simply switching is a monumental task given majors, specific courses etc. and is real a major life disruption for the student. Frankly, it would be much, much easier to solve such a problem of the OP’s than to change schools.</p>

<p>More importantly though, I teach my kids that running from a problem is not always the way to solve an issue. Running solves it for them, sure, but it still leaves the problem and mess for others. Others who may not have the wherewithal in how to go about improving the situation. There are times when one should directly address an issue and clean up a situation that is not good - for yourself, yes, but also for the betterment of others. </p>

<p>And if it did happen to my kids, they could not go to better schools anyways, as they are in the very top ones. So, the solution would be to solve it right then and there. To be accurate, one kid starts this September, and the other is already in college. </p>

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<p>Before we conclude this happy trip down “unintelligble lane” I’d just love to see a few datapoints on ACTUAL instances of a college where a professor cannot be understood by a group of students in the class, where those students alerted the administration appropriately (i.e. in a meeting or a letter, not an anonymous kvetch website or on Facebook) AND where another reasonable substitution was not made.</p>

<p>This is the strawman argument. My own kids have had issues (not this one) at college (and yes, full pay, top ones, etc.) and I was pretty surprised by how eager the administration was to resolve each and every problem. Whether exam conflicts (one professor said, “your problem”, but the Dean of students was horrified and fixed the problem in five minutes with one phone call), a miscommunication around pre-requisites leading to a required class not being taken in sequence, a professor getting ill mid-semester in a very small seminar, or whatever it was… the Dean’s get paid to fix things, and I’ve been universally impressed with how good they are at- in fact- fixing things.</p>

<p>Kids complain about a host of issues at college but I’d like to see an example of a kid who complained appropriately and was told, “suck it up”. Because I’m just not sure that this is how at works at these alleged top colleges. But kids need to be taught how to complain. Posting nasty comments online- not effective. Complaining to your roommate- not effective. Whining to the TA about the professor- not effective. Getting on the calendar of the Department Chair and having a five minute meeting- usually effective. Sending an email to the Provost’s office (the provost is the “boss” of all academic functions at a university) asking who would be the appropriate person to handle the unintelligible professor- highly effective. Telling your parents that you got a C in organic chem because the professor had a heavy accent-- ???</p>

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<p>It should be pointed out that professors in a research institution have to give a seminar as part of the job application process. They also have face to face interviews with many of the faculty in the department. I think someone who was truly unintelligible would not fare well. Of course some may be difficult to understand, particularly if they have a strong accent or poor public speaking skills in a larger room with inferior acoustics and particularly if less-than-fully engaged students trickle in late with a noisy door closing behind them every minute. If my child complained, the first thing I would ask is, are you sitting up in front? Having recently sat in on a number of college classes, I was surprised at how many students were strolling in late and how disruptive it was for those sitting near the back. These weren’t 8 am classes either.</p>

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<p>People are focusing too much on accents, not absolute lack of fluency in English, and assuming too much that is can’t really be such a problem. Yes, exceptionally promising researchers are hired who simply cannot speak English well enough to do a decent job teaching. For some, it is sink and swim, and eventually they swim, but it is not good for the classes that have to suffer the early years of of the professor’s learning curve.</p>

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<p>I’m not assuming it’s not a problem- I’m looking for data. I’ve had children, nieces, nephews, etc. in a wide range of institutions over the last ten years and have not had one tell me that lack of English fluency was a problem IN THEIR EXPERIENCE. So i’m looking for an actual instance or two or five of a kid who had this problem and found the administration unwilling to offer up an alternative- another section of the same course taught by someone fluent in English, for example. Which university and which department? Are we all going to just assure ourselves that it’s a big problem or does anyone actually have data?</p>

<p>I’ve interviewed post-doc’s and PhD’s whose command of English wasn’t terrific- which was problematic for them transitioning out of academia and into corporate life. But my company (unlike the speech therapist posting above) is happy to pay for accent remediation classes and we don’t have any ethical issues with it.</p>

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<p>@luvthej - I hope you are sitting down. Guess what? I agree with everything you wrote above. All those are relevant points, and I definitely get those being contributors in the scenarios you state. </p>

<p>So, how in the world is it possible I can agree with you and also hold the viewpoint I have? Simple really - we have different starting points for our arguments. </p>

<p>For context, please note what the OP states in the very first post of the thread:</p>

<p>"… all who took it were terribly upset as they had not been able to understand a word this prof spoke all semester."</p>

<p>"…but can’t communicate that to their students because of a language barrier. Perhaps they should have translators for their classes."</p>

<p>These are not terminology or attention issues; they are more fundamental. It is basic understanding of communication. Knowing all the terminology will not help if the basics of communication are not there. </p>

<p>More specifically, learning higher-order information is about analysis, detail, and connection of possibly rather disparate concepts. Even if one knows terminology etc., if communication skills are limited due to some lacking in the use of the English language and/or an accent, much of those important connections between information would be missed. Missed not because of lack of knowledge of terminology and information, but due to lack of communication ability to properly explain the higher-order connections. Proper use of vocabulary and verbs are crucial to explaining higher-order concepts, in addition to being understood.</p>

<p>Now, take this one step further back to your scenario where freshman may be hearing this new stuff for the first time. It is doubly difficult at this juncture because the new information is hard enough, but not actually understanding the professor language-wise compounds the issue.</p>

<p>Where we differ is: 1) my starting point addresses basic communication, which must exist for connected learning to take place, and 2) your starting point addresses understanding of new information and attention. In this respect, you are a full step ahead of what I am was talking about.</p>

<p>Yes, I do understand everyone has varying thresholds and definitions of what is intelligible. But, I think it important to take the OP at his word because he did not say the professor could not explain things. Possibly, the professor was explaining things as good as Einstein. The OP clearly said the students could not understand to the point they could even use a translator. That is not an issue of terminology, newness, or paying attention; that is a basic communication problem.</p>

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<p>Another problem is professors with poor English who don’t have much self-awareness and don’t make any effort to compensate. I often teach in English to classes where most of the students are not, and not required to be, at a high level in oral English. So I change the way I teach, use a lot of visual material, show more text in slides (most of them can read better than listen), speak slower, go round and round the point until I see that it has been received. It is the teacher’s duty to monitor the quality of communication going on in the class.</p>

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<p>“all who took it were terribly upset as they had not been able to understand a word this prof spoke all semester.”</p>

<p>And the administrations reaction to this on day 3 of class was to do what? And the Dean’s reaction to this on day four of class was to do what? And the Department Chair’s reaction on day 5 of this was to do what?</p>

<p>You pay 60K per year and your kid shows up for class day after day, doesn’t understand a single word the professor says all semester and you find out about after the class has ended and your kid has done nothing to remediate the situation? All Semester? Not a single word? And yet the kids dutifully showed up day after day, doing the reading, handing in papers, taking exams, nobody understood a word???</p>

<p>Tell your kid- Day 3 of class- you don’t understand the professor- switch out. There’s not a provost on the planet who will keep an entire lecture hall empty with a professor at the front of the room lecturing to an empty classroom. Not one.</p>

<p>Again, I’m calling the BS police on this.</p>

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<p>awcntdb I see your point more clearly. In a long thread like this it’s hard to get disconnected. You are accepting the notion that there is a serious problem with professors having insufficient language skills to teach effectively. From my own experience being an instructor and peer teaching mentor/reviewer in STEM classes, MO is that this is not the case. The few rare cases are likely to be rectified quickly. The complaints of “lack of english skills” in essentially all cases come down to the other issues discussed above.<br>
As one person posted above, people interviewing for faculty positions are scrutinized for teaching potential, including but not limited to, english speaking skills. We have rejected candidates that we felt could not teach UGs (BTW, including american born candidates). Other depts here do the same. What some may not understand is that having people in your dept who cannot teach effectively is a much greater headache for us than what we gain from their research abilities. It really is.
I’ll also confirm what others wrote too. When students approach a dept head or assoc dean of UG education with a credible instructor performance issue, it gets noticed and is acted upon very quickly. Sometimes it is justified, most not. Since I review/mentor new instructors I had to be part of these cases. Know what most of them involve? Grading and perceived inequity issues (possible cheating by other students), not english speaking skill problems.</p>

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That’s interesting - the instructors can’t win for losing. In another recent thread a mother complained that her son was accused of cheating on two exams by letting another student copy from him. He denied it and she believed him. He was ultimately processed and found “not guilty”. Responses to her situation included:</p>

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<p>The message to the instructor: Don’t even bother, it’s a waste of your time and everyone else’s. OTOH, if the instructor doesn’t address it, he/she can be complained about for NOT addressing it. It’s a lose/lose.</p>

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<p>Another factor in many undergrads attributing their lack of understanding due to “unintelligibility” from what I’ve observed and heard endlessly is self-inflicted due to lack of adequate sleep* or coming to class stoned/inebriated**.</p>

<p>Factors which along with an inability/unwillingness to learn to adapt to instructors who don’t sound like themselves…places the onus 100% on the students. </p>

<p>Pretty odd considering even among all native-born US first-year students…the proportion of students with those issues is a tiny minority. </p>

<ul>
<li>Experienced this firsthand on occasion early during my first-year. However, instead of blaming my instructors for not understanding them, I understood I needed to take responsibility for not getting adequate sleep the night before and adjusted accordingly. Funny how that issue went away the instant I got enough sleep.</li>
</ul>

<p>** Stoners on a few occasions at my LAC when they can be bothered to show up, inebriated students on other campuses including the elite/Ivies. </p>

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<p>Re: getting enough sleep</p>

<p>I would not be surprised if that were related to the common overused student complaint about “not being able to get the classes needed to graduate on time because they are full”. Translated: “the only sections of the needed class that had seats available are the 8am ones (which never fill up)”.</p>

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<p>re: being too stoned or hung over to understand the professor</p>

<p>Guess it’s easier to tell the parents, “yeah, I never understood a word the guy said all semester” rather than say, “gosh, you think I’d have done better in school if I wasn’t wasted most of the time?”</p>

<p>I’m still waiting for the data points… won’t one person who claims this is a big problem step up? Tell me “Yes, six of the organic chemistry professors at Cornell are incomprehensible. Half aren’t fluent in English and the other half have accents which make them too hard to understand. My kid spoke with the department chair who did nothing. My kid sent an email to the Dean of Students who said,” suck it up". Her advisor told her to go major in Labor Relations or apply to the Ag school since those professors are all American-born."</p>

<p>Nobody has a data point for this allegedly huge and persistent problem across academia?</p>

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<p>I am never wasted, in office hours at any rate, and I meet a lot of professors whose English level plus accent is so poor that they could not be effective teachers. </p>

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<p>@sorghum - It is obvious there are many adults who do not believe students, as a general operating principle. Wow, I feel lucky then to have been around adults who actually took me seriously if I ever said something critical. My parents took me seriously; all my high school teachers took me seriously; and all my college professors took me seriously. And I take my kids seriously when they speak. Boy, as a student, it must suck to live around jaded adults.</p>

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<p>A large part of that is from remembering my days as a student not that long ago and encountering plenty of students…especially first-years on different campuses who make use “unintelligibility” or “foreign accents” have other serious issues which are almost always self-inflicted or an inexplicable lack of willingness to adapt/engage and be proactive in dealing with this issue. </p>

<p>Also, kvetching about this without taking proactive steps Blossom and other commenters have outlined is not only ineffective, but also doesn’t reflect well on the kvetchers…even among classmates who were somehow able to adapt or be more proactive in dealing with this issue. </p>

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<p>So, @cobrat, you seem to be claiming both that there was no issue, and that your classmates were good at dealing with the nonexistent issue. </p>

<p>And as a student, you went around multiple campuses, where plenty of students complained (to you), but you somehow investigated and determined that their complaints were baseless?</p>