<p>Does anyone have a weigh in for the difference in the two methods. In a trimester system (as they called it when I went to school) you carry 17 to 18 credits for 8 weeks and then change to another set of courses. Does that "water down" the intensity of the program or give the ability to get more variety of classes into the course of study. I know that CCM and CMU both have it and I wondered if there are pros and cons.</p>
<p>I did clarify the length of the quarters on the CCM site. University of Cincinnati has 3 quarters tat are 10 weeks of instruction plus 1 week of exams, so they are quite a bit longer than the 8 week trimester system. It's hard to know if they are better or worse, because it probably depends on the subject. I am on faculty and hate quarters- but I came out of a semester system and since we work with public schools the quarters really don't match well.</p>
<p>Many of the classes that I know of and work with at UC are really considered "year-long" sequences so when I look at transfer students I look at did they complete the year-long sequence, not the specific class. I am sure there are many courses that this doesn't apply to, but I think it would be hard to say it waters the classes down, more likely it changes what gets included.</p>
<p>CMU has a semester system. What gets a little confusing is that instead of "credit hours", the classes earn "Carnegie Units". Carnegie Units are a statement of the total anticipated student hours per week that the class will require, including actual class time, labs AND out of class preparation and homework. So, a 3 credit class at another school that meets 3x1 hour per week and requires 6 hours of time outside of class would be rated at 9 Carnegie Units.</p>
<p>Ok, so 52 credits in the fall semester of the freshman year means what?</p>
<p>I honestly wouldn't let whether a program has a trimester or semester system play any part in decision-making about programs! :)</p>
<p>Ok, so what would you suggest for a list of priorities in the decision-making process. All of these programs tote themselves as being a "top notched" MT program as that is their job to promote their school.</p>
<p>I think it is all personal choice when making a list of priorities in the decision making process. What exactly is your S or D looking for in a program. Each program is so different. I think that programs that work on a trimester or quarter system have their curriculum worked out to that format. Other schools have a semester system and their curriculum works with that format. CCM and CMU have a lot of successful, well trained graduates... they sound like they are on a trimester or quarter system. Other schools on a semester system also have successful, well trained graduates. Most of these academic structure decisions are made by the university. The department fits their training into the schedule model established by the university at large.</p>
<p>I think when looking at curriculum it is helpful to look at the ratio of time or classes in the different areas of music, theatre, dance, theatre academics, general academics. Students will be looking for a different sort of balance between the areas depending on the individual students interests and strengths. </p>
<p>It is difficult to compare curriculums from schools that follow different organizational models for credits, but I think if you look at the ration at each individual school between the disciplines it hopefully may make it easier to compare programs.</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>That is a hard one to answer and maybe when he returns from BTP next week, he will have a better focus. The whole MT comparison process is a little overwhelming. I have taken all of the advice given here very seriously am preparing to take a trip to visit several schools next month. I have tried to read the websites as much as possible and even looked at the staff for their BIO's to see if that reveals anything. I have looked at the course of study on each one and it looks like a repeat of my son's last 3 years at his PA HS. Most of the courses taught in the first 2 years have already been presented on a college level at the conservatory portion of his schools curriculum. For instance, by the end of his Jr year, the Music Theory class was already being asked to write their own composure for a final grade. It was not an AP Music Theory class, just a regular class that all MT students at his school are required to take. This makes it very difficult to assess the programs. We have a very good college couselor at the school for the academic side, but the conservatory teachers and counselors each have their own opinions about the different MT schools, so it becomes a bit of a guessing game. Any suggestions on how to muddle through the process?</p>
<p>I agree with NMR. The way a college structures it's instructional time is probably one of the last things I'd be considering in this process. In fact, it wasn't even on our list of items when determining ANY of my 4Ds college lists, including the one who has a BFA.</p>
<p>The main items we looked at for my BFA D were:</p>
<p>-a very detailed examination of curriculum (and then a comparison when list is complete) and a look at how the schedule works (how credit hours are determined seems to be different at each school so I wouldn't place much importance on that alone)</p>
<p>-faculty - who they are and what is their experience</p>
<p>-reputation in the theatre community; where are recent grads working (40 year old grads are interesting to hear about but not particularly useful when examining how much success new grads have in booking work)</p>
<p>-experiences and comments from current and graduated students (emphasis on studentS plural); are students focussed and ambitious? how many have established student run theatre companies? other related abilities and talents? writers? directors? musical directors? musicians?</p>
<p>-performance opportunities - diversity of types of shows (is it only old classics or are new playwrights' works embraced?) challenging works? is there a film school? outside opportunities? student run shows?</p>
<p>-master classes/visiting professionals - what type and how often? </p>
<p>-ease of establishing connections and contacts in the theatre community</p>
<p>-ability to double major (which lead to many related questions regarding scheduling, ease of registration, etc.)</p>
<p>I took Music Theory where we had to compose our own pieces at the end of the semester, and college and conservatory acting classes in HS before I went to Syracuse for MT performance. I did not go to Perf. Arts HS, but I never felt that what I was learning in college was redundant because I had already been training or working professionally in theatre before I went to SU. I went to college with students who had attended PA HS and/ or had worked professionally before college (I am of the "Annie" generation... so I went to college with young women who had gotten their AEA cards as kids on tours and in the Broadway production of Annie). I do not think that any of them felt like their college training was completely redundant, or in vain :).</p>
<p>This is a similar questions to one I responded to on the Arts Majors board about pursuing an MFA after completing a BFA. Performers are always training. Even if some of the basic concepts in courses and training are the same between HS and College, or Undergrad and Grad School as an individual you have grown, bring something different to, and are ready to get something different out of the work. We are constantly growing as performers and artists. </p>
<p>Many programs will allow a student to test into higher levels of courses if they demonstrate the proficiency. The BA program where I teach places dancers with more experience into higher level dance classes (this placement is based upon their audition), and students may test into higher levels of Music Theory, Ear Training, and Keyboarding. I am sure that many schools are like this. It is less likely that a freshman will be allowed to "test out of" basic MT Performance and Acting classes. </p>
<p>I think I may be working with a graduate of your Sons PA HS in CA... he just graduated from a BFA MT program. If I think of it I will ask him how he felt about his college experience vs. his HS experience. I would think that many grads of the PA HS from which your S is graduating would be able to speak to this... possibly he could ask the teachers to put him in touch with recent grads.</p>
<p>Which brings up a point that I do not wish to rehash all over again because it was a bit brutle to get all the opinions on how "impossible" a double or dual major would be but....I am going to ask the hard questions to the colleges directly when we visit. The schools that we are looking at do offer double or dual majors but only 2 CC posts have encouraged that with the BFA in MT. Even though my s is going in with almost all of his gen ed completed by his AP credits (and yes I have checked each receiving school and their policies), I keep being told that it is not necessarily impossible, but highly improbable. So, that being a critical issue to the schools that we choose, how do we get a clear answer to that question. It has been suggested to speak to students who have tried it or done it, but the colleges wont give out confidential info such as names, etc. and they do not seem to be here on the CC MT threads. I understand how individual each student is and I can't seem to find anyone who understand that my s thrives on long hours, little sleep, academic challenges and has proven so with his 3 years at a PA HS that goes from 8a-5pm every day, carries 3 or 4 AP classes (Calc, Bio, Physics) and still takes dance and voice and rehearses until 11pm when in a production. Where do I find someone that can help with this particular type of student? I just keep hearing how intense the BFA MT programs are and that there is no time to do anything else, and if you try to do something else, something will likely suffer, but there are people who have done it. I just can't find them or their parents to get REAL feedback! HELP!! I am drowing here :(</p>
<p>I agree with all that KatMT wrote in post #7 (oops, I see there have been more posts that have gone up since I wrote this reply....I'll go read 'em afterward). ANY prospective student selecting colleges, needs to have a list of personal selection criteria. One person's list of criteria is different than another's. One person may care about size of the university, or size of the program. One may care about the geographic location more than another kid might. Some care about the setting. Some care if there are a showcase and some don't find that to be critical. Some may not want a cut program and some do not mind one. Some care about the kinds of production opportunities (ie., student run productions, number of musicals). Some care about how much liberal arts will be offered (this varies from BFA to BFA program). It is very important to examine the curriculum at each program as this differs a LOT. Do you want balance between the three disciplines? Do you want several dance disciplines per year? Do you want private voice all four years? Do you want actors to learn voice/speech? Do you prefer a focus such as music or drama? Some people care about the fame of the graduates of the program. Some care about the professional experience level of the faculty. Some care about the theater facilities. Some may care the male/female ratio in the department. Some care about what acting method is taught. Some care about who directs the productions or any master classes. Some care what method is used to evaluate students in the BFA program. Some care about restrictions to freshmen being in productions. Some care about casting policies. Some care about the college atmosphere itself. Frats/sororities. College athletics. Religious affiliation. Some care about student run drama clubs. Some care if the program teaches about the "business." Some care about alumni networks. What does your son care about? </p>
<p>Once a student has established his critieria, he must then explore many college options and then chart everything he has found out about the program and make comparisons between programs and colleges and see which ones most closely align with his personal college selection criteria. Most schools will not align in EVERY way with what the kid wants but the ones that match more things of what he wants are good fits. One person's selection criteria is not the next person's. For instance, you seem to care about semester vs. trimester and many won't care about that at all. I have seen people who care about the fame of alumni and in my D's case, that was not part of her selection criteria. I have students who say "I won't go to a school that doesn't allow freshmen to be in productions" and my D understood that many fine programs have this rule and was OK with it. I agree with Kat, however, that it is essential to examine the curricula of each program as these programs differ a lot in that way and then determine which one appeals to what YOU want which may not be what the next kid wants. For instance, I have seen kids say that they want a program to focus on singing the most because that is their strength but another kid may say that they prefer to use college as an opportunity to develop in their areas of weakness and to round out their skill set.</p>
<p>It's not usually a problem to get names of students from the schools - not without the student's permission, but the directors of the programs will be able to put your son in touch with kids that are double majoring. I would email someone from the MT department and just ask if they can put you in touch with a student who is doing or has done "xyz." Your son might be able to get a lot of good info by networking on Facebook with kids already in the programs.</p>
<p>Thanks KatMT, It would be great to chat with someone who had the same training prior to college to get some insight. That is exactly what soozievt was suggesting in earlier threads. I have found a couple of students who have just gone through the application/audition process, but that only helps with that part of the puzzle. I have known of students who have gone to Fullerton here in SoCal and were very disappointed and it is highly rated in publications and such. I think that might be why our kids from this area are looking at schools on the East coast and such. Again, personal choice, but until we speak to someone who has had virtually the same training going into a college BFA MT program, I dont think we are comparing apples and apples. We don't have the resources to be able to "try a program" and then move on if it doesn't fit. That is why I am trying to "dig in" as much as I can and will ask the questions to the colleges when we visit. Unfortunately, school starts for us about the same time as the colleges so we will be visiting before the student arrive on campus.</p>
<p>brit brat....having now read your posts....</p>
<p>First, there are MANY kids who have attended PA high schools who still find the BFA conservatories challenging. In fact, there are kids from your son's HS at my D's BFA and they seem happy with the training. My daughter did not attend a PA HS as there are none in our state. But at her BFA program (and you could check this out at others if this matters to your son), they have dance placement and so she had danced her entire life a LOT and so liked her college (this is just ONE reason) because it allowed advanced dancers to be placed with advanced dancers and not all kids are in the same dance level as is true at some other BFA programs. Also, while she did not have Music Theory at our HS (nor is AP offered), my D had an EXTENSIVE background in music theory through her piano teacher of ten years who emphasized it. She was able to take a placement exam at CAP21 and placed out of all the years of Music Theory in the program there. At UMich, there is a piano placement exam and she was able to place out of all the required piano classes but had available more advanced ones if she had wanted them and if she had attended of course. So, that may be worth examining at each school. I agree with others that the acting and vocal classes likely will not change placement for students. However, many come in with high skills and training under their belts and your son will not be alone in that regard. </p>
<p>You keep mentioning that people have said you cannot double major. I don't know any other way to put this than I already have but it is not so much that you can't double major (at some schools, like Tisch, you CAN), but that the combo of a BFA in MT and an engineering degree would not be possible. It is THAT combo we all commented about. However, a BFA in MT can be combined at some schools with another BA major or minor. An engineering degree could be combined with another BA major or minor such as in theater. But the two degree programs of BFA and Engineering each are NOT normal majors and require more courses and hours PER MAJOR than other majors and thus doing both (in four years at least) is not possible most likely. </p>
<p>You also keep mentioning that your son is used to long hours. So are many many many of our children. While my D did not attend a PA HS....she did her training and a lot of production work outside the school day and thus was scheduled all afternoon, all evening and most of the weekend as well. It also often involved an average of 100 miles per day in the car. She also went to a summer theater intensive for 8 years which involved classes and rehearsals day and night. She was used to intense work and also took the hardest curriculum available in HS and excelled. Your son will not be the only one entering with such a schedule. However, a BFA is intense....make no mistake about it. They attend school ALL DAY and have rehearsals ALL NIGHT and many weekends. My D has nine classes and all the prep for them plus papers to write. She has leadership roles in extracurricular endeavors requiring large amounts of time. There is not a free moment hardly ever. And that is just doing the BFA in MT without engineering. She can handle it just fine. That is not an issue. But there are no more hours left in her day to also do engineering....unless she did it between 1 AM and 7 AM.</p>
<p>I will echo alwaysamom...my D talked with MANY current students at each program and sometimes did overnights with them to garner first hand perspectives. Given that your son attends a PA HS where many go onto BFA programs (the opposite of our HS), you would think he'd have an array of alumni he could contact at each program. My D knew kids at most BFA programs due to having many friends from theater camp who attend most of these well known programs and she met up with them on campus visits and also was in email contact with them.</p>
<p>52 Carnegie Units for the semester means that the school has determined that based on the class hours and hours spent outside of class preparing for class, that a student will be investing 52 hours of their time per week.</p>
<p>KatMT and alwaysamom are offering you very good informed advice. Also keep in mind that your deliberative process should be a bit different at the application stage than at the end stage of determining where to attend after acceptances are in. Up front, you need to also focus on putting together a diverse list of schools, in a reasonable number, that cover the gamut from schools that give weight to academics for admissions, those that give less weight, smaller programs, larger programs, schools that draw from a national pool, those that draw from a more regional pool, those that are very selective because they have large numbers of applicants, those that have smaller numbers of applicants. As has been stated innumerable times, even the so called "less competitive" audition based BFA programs still only accept 9 or 10% of their applicants. If you don't have a diverse list of schools, your odds of not getting an acceptance increase significantly. In this regard, getting fixated on the "top" schools will not serve you well. There are many very good programs out there. Don't limit yourself to those that proclaim themselves or are viewed by the lay community as the "top" - the ones that only accept 2%-5% of applicants. That doesn't mean they are the "best" schools and certainly doesn't mean they are the right ones for your son.</p>
<p>Which leads to the backend of this process. Once acceptances are in, your son will hopefully be going through the deliberative process of choosing between schools. All of the factors listed by KatMT and alwaysamom will be highly relevant. At the same time, the "fit" or feel of the school will be critically important. If you've done your homework, all of the schools on your son's list will schools which on the merits are well worth going to. At the end, the most important factor may very well be which school seems to fit the best, where does your son feel most comfortable with the educational philosophy, his sense of the how he would fit in with the student body and the type of rapport he feels he would develop with the professors.</p>
<p>I am hearing you and have since found a student at U of Mich that actually did do it in 5 years. It was a BFA in MT and Engineering. He is going to put me in touch with some other students who have done the dual degree at U of Mich with the BFA MT and a BS in LSA, so I am slowly but surely finding my answers. I do understand that it does limit the number of choices for schools, but my research is finally paying off. Thanks for all of your good suggestions. I appreciate all of them from everyone.</p>
<p>Response to Post #11 -- I think that many kids who go to BA or BFA MT programs were kids who took multiple APs, were involved in intense academic and theatre classes, and rehearsed for shows at night. Again this reminds me of the undergraduate to graduate school issue. The idea behind a BFA is that it is a focused degree program for the student who is certain that they want to focus exclusively on training in one area. This is like an MFA -- I was asked by a student once if you could double major in graduate school -- doing a MM in Opera performance and an MFA in Musical Theatre... another asking if you could double major during your MFA program in Acting and Costume Design the answer is generally no, because graduate school is all about focus. A BFA at a "top notch" school is similar to an MFA. </p>
<p>There are some very good BA programs where a student can double major (with difficulty). There may be BFA programs where it is possible -- but I think the reason that you are not finding many people here who have done so is because it is very rare. Most kids who choose to pursue a BFA are doing so because they want to focus in college. </p>
<p>The BA program where I teach has students who are very focused and want to pursue professional careers post graduation, but who want a college experience while they are training that is more well rounded. Some do also double major -- although I would say that more enter with the idea that they may want to double major than actually do double major.</p>
<p>I am sure that there are schools out there that may offer your S the opportunity to double major. But I think the the schools that have a top notch prestigious BFA MT program on the level of CMU, Michigan, CCM, NYU etc... that also will have a top notch engineering school, AND allow students to double degree (I do not believe that CMU will -- but, of course check with the programs) will be few and far between. Dopes that mean that your S should not apply to those schools, of course not... but it seems like what some have been suggesting is that it will be difficult to find a list of 6 - 10 schools that will fit both the engineering and the MT criteria AND allow a student to dual degree. </p>
<p>If I hear of any programs of of any students who seem to be successfully pursuing both I will let you know what I find out and try to put you in touch with the students.</p>
<p>I completely agree with Michael's advice. I find too many students narrowing their focus in selecting colleges to which to apply. Right now, they are NOT selecting where to attend but merely schools that meet some of their criteria enough to apply. If they get too nitpicky at this stage of the game, they are going to close themselves out of options in what is a highly competitive admissions process. They must cast a wider net and create a balanced list of odds, while still choosing schools that meet a lot of otheir selection criteria. Once acceptances are in hand, they can afford to be even pickier about which school most closely fits what they want in a school. I would heed everything Michael wrote in his post about building a balanced list and also not focusing on the "name schools" (many kids only have heard of those schools and either these are not realistic fits for some kids, or else the odds are too difficult to rely on just those schools and they are missing out on many BFA in MT gems out there by not looking openly at schools they have not heard of before).</p>
<p>I will also ask the grad of your son's PA HS who I am currently directing in a show if he has any insights... although I do not believe he double majored -- he did attend a very intense MT program. I will PM you if I have any info -- we open Wednesday, so it may be later in the week :)</p>