S19 is considering them for CS. Also interested in cognitive science as a dual major or possible minor. He has visited 2 of the 3 and planning to visit Carleton in September. EFC pretty similar and we know the basics about the 3. Looking for personal experiences or opinions about the schools or programs for info we might not have thought about or wouldn’t know. S has done his research and possibly considering ED but still debating which one.
Thanks for an input. He wants to make a pro/con list for each. Obviously any choice is dependent on getting accepted and might not be his decision.
Lehigh probably has the most “mainstream” vibe, with Division I sports, a lively Greek and party scene (which the administration is trying to tone down), and the most pre-professional students. These could be pluses or minuses, depending on your personality.
The CS orientation at Lehigh is different from that at other schools. Lehigh offers a very unusual four-year “Computer Science and Business” (CSB) degree that is dual-accredited in both fields (ABET for CS; AACSB for business). The CSB program apparently has particularly strong employment outcomes, and has become significantly more popular than the traditional “plain-vanilla” CS program. So most CS students at Lehigh are simultaneously enrolled at the Business School, and are pursuing business degrees in addition to CS degrees. This is not the norm for CS students elsewhere.
Lehigh definitely favors ED applicants, and now enrolls slightly more than 50% of freshmen through the ED process. For Fall 2017, the acceptance rate was around 60% for ED and between 20-25% for RD.
Carleton is quite different in this group, being the only LAC. As such, Carleton has no engineering school, and focuses exclusively on undergraduate education (though faculty also perform research). Whether these facts are pros or cons depends on one’s perspective. Course selection is typically more limited at an LAC, especially when it comes to more advanced courses. Class sizes tend to be smaller, and it is generally easier for students to interact closely with faculty.
A student with a narrow STEM focus, and an interest in engineering, might be happier at Case or Lehigh. Someone who wants to combine CS and CogSci, and who wishes to explore a broader spectrum of ideas for their own sake, might be happier at Carleton. I confess to being a fan of LACs, and of Carleton in particular. It has one of the strongest CS programs among LACs (with the above caveats). If institutional profiles or program specifics don’t tip your scales in a particular direction, then a sense of the overall environment through campus visits could turn out to be the key here.
The top LACs, like Carleton, are generally great for double majors. A double major in CS and CogSci should be no problem.
The same double-major should also be possible at Lehigh or Case, but you would have to pick the right option for CS. At Lehigh, for example, the CS options include BA vs BS, Engineering School vs. Arts & Sciences, and CS vs. CSB. CogSci is a BA program in Arts & Science; it would likely be easy to add CS as a second BA major in the same school. On the other hand, a CogSci-CSB double-major would likely be impossible, since CSB is effectively already a difficult double-major.
You might want to compare the housing situation at these schools. At small LACs like Carleton, students often live in campus housing for all four years. At larger universities, the campus housing situation is typically tighter, so students have to move off-campus at some point. Lehigh expects students to live on-campus for the first two years; after that, they generally move to one of the many inexpensive row houses located in the adjacent parts of South Bethlehem.
Some students look forward to the opportunity to have their “own place” and to assume responsibility for adult things like rent, groceries, and utilities. Other students are happy to postpone this transition for as long as possible.
@Corbett Actually at Carleton, double majors are not as common as at other schools. Admissions told us it was less than 20%, because a double major would require 2 comps which is their name for thesis. Minors may be more common.
I do think the student vibe/social aspect would be vastly different between Lehigh and Carleton and would think the OPs son would feel that once he visits Carleton.
What a fascinating choice of three colleges, because you are contrasting a more tech-oriented university (Case), a university (Lehigh), and a small liberal arts college (Carleton)! After his visits, maybe he will have a feel for which types of schools to explore as matches and safeties, based on which of the three top choices “feels” best to him. All three are great choices, where he can get a superb education. The question is which environment appeals to him the most.
I happen to think the small liberal arts environment of Carleton is very special, and only available to him as an undergraduate (whereas he can attend a university for grad school). It will have small classes, teaching-oriented professors, only undergrads helping the professors with research (so great opportunities), and a close-knit community— all typical features of a top small liberal arts college. It also has no fraternities, so the most inclusive social environment of the three. But others well might argue for the larger student body, more courses, graduate courses, and advanced research of the larger universities. It is about preference. There is no “wrong” choice in terms of his future career or overall education.
If a school requires a capstone project or thesis for the major, then yes, that can make double-majors very difficult or impossible. Reed and Princeton are like that, didn’t know about Carleton.
Many top LACs, including Carleton, do not allow fraternities or sororities. In contrast, most universities, including Lehigh, have well-developed Greek systems. This definitely affects student social life.
The housing situation is also a factor At LACs, most or all of the students typically live in campus housing, which gives the college administration and campus security a lot of control over student parties and other aspects of social life. The college can ban kegs in the dorms, for example, and shut down parties that are out of compliance. At universities, on the other hand, upperclassmen commonly live off-campus in rented apartments or houses, which gives them more freedom (for better or worse). If a student of legal drinking age wants to take a keg into his off-campus housing, there really isn’t anything that the university administration or college security can do about that.
I am also a fan of top LACs, including Carleton, for these reasons. However, there is a lot of variation among “universities”, and there are some small universities that approach the LACs in these respects. Lehigh, Dartmouth, and Wake Forest are examples of schools that are typically classified as “universities”, but which have relatively small undergraduate enrollments (~5,000), even fewer graduate students (~2,500), and an emphasis on undergraduate teaching rather than research (not AAU institutions).
It’s worth noting that Lehigh’s closest “peers”, in terms of cross-applications and athletic rivalries, are probably Lafayette, Bucknell, and Colgate – all of which are generally accepted as LACs. The line between “LAC” and “university” is not sharp, when comparing a large LAC with engineering and business programs (like Bucknell) to a small university (like Lehigh).
Thanks so much, I appreciate all of the replies. Housing and the majors are definitely things he needs to consider. He loves Lehigh campus but not a fan of Greek life. I can see him at any of these for different reasons. For matches or safeties, maybe RIT, U Del and UNL. Unsure of similar small schools that might be good fits.
I came back to update and if any of you or anyone else have things to consider for the final decision, I would love to hear and greatly appreciate any thoughts.
We can’t visit again but saw all campuses last summer.
S19 could never decide and did not end up applying ED. He applied RD and was waitlisted at Case and Carleton. Case gave a great financial aid package but I don’t think it’s an option. I’m not sure if it was because it was the last visit or what. It’s like online dating, it looks perfect for him on paper but he’s not feeling it.
Lehigh-school he fell in love with and made him look for smaller schools. Loves the idea of behavioral neuroscience in addition to CS/AI. My brother lives in Philly and my parents are in NoVA. Falls right in budget.
RIT-really made him feel wanted. Lots of nice emails, Presidential scholarship, likes co-op/5 year plan. Accepted to CS and feels good that it seems to be small program and he made it in. No family anywhere in state. Most expensive choice.
UNL- in state, Regent scholarship, honors, doesn’t seem to have big AI focus but his friends are all around. Least expensive choice.
We’ve spent so much time debating choices that I think he’s afraid to commit. Plus they each have merits. I’m so grateful for CC because we don’t have experience or others IRL who can provide guidance on these schools.
Congratulations to him on having such nice acceptances/choices!
If you can afford all three…
You can let him know that you do not think there is a “wrong” choice- that he did his research, knows he will be able to study what he wants and be happy at any of them, and thus can choose one, send in a deposit, start getting excited about it, and never look back!
Have him weigh the final three against each other one pair at a time. Having already ensured that each has what he needs, now he can go by which “feels” best!
E.g., Lehigh vs. RIT. Imagine picking Lehigh. How does he feel? Then, imagine picking RIT. How does he feel? The one he feels more excited to attend (or more disappointed to say goodbye to) is the winner for that round.
Do the same for Lehigh vs. UNL, and RIt vs. UNL. The one he realizes he keeps hoping will win the contests, is the one he should go to!
Just coming back to update in case there are others who obsessively read about college options and want to see how it turns out. I am happy the last kid is through this process! He was also WL at Tufts and rejected at Wash U. No visits to either and he did not show any interest to Wash U. He didn’t read the part about submitting continued interest to Tufts until it was too late.
He chose Lehigh. While he said he wanted to attend UNL for awhile, it was really not wanting to leave his friends. I could not convince him to go visit and he finally realized he wanted to take the OOS opportunity. His CS teacher was a little surprised he didn’t go to RIT and it was tough to turn it down.
He is excited about the cognitive science & AI options at Lehigh and following D1 lacrosse. He loved the campus and my fingers are crossed that he loves it just as much when we show up in August.