pros & cons of CC or 4-year (with LDs)

Parents Forum
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<p>If a kid has LDs, there are different ways to start college, immediately after HS graduation, with different pros and cons.</p>

<p>These kids are a varied group, so let's assume first that the kid is classified as a special ed student but functions reasonably well in HS without a lot of help, taking the low- to medium-level college prep courses (no AP or Honors). Taking only four academic subjects most years in HS, instead of five. Graduating with a gpa of 2.8 or so, which puts you in the lower half of the class (25th percentile or so) with SAT scores in the range of 450-500 per section. These scores do not assure the kid of placement in true college-credit-conferring courses at most 4-year colleges. Typically a kid with this profile would have to take the Accuplacer on arrival at the college, and depending on the score, might have to do remedial non-credit-conferring coursework in the first semester or two. The four-year schools that this kid would get into, straight out of HS, are undistinguished.</p>

<p>Let's also assume that the community college is open enrollment, but a true academic institution, where students can and do successfully transfer to four year schools and finish bachelors' degrees. Let's assume that the kid's goal is to finish a bachelor's degree, and there will be no merit money. The parents are full-pay, but there are certainly some budgeting constraints. The budgeted maximum at a four-year school is 8 semesters. But access to community college is virtually unlimited, from the parent's perspective. From the kid's perspective, I have seen older kids lose patience when making very slow progress with a degree, as they move into their 20s and their old friends are finishing the bachelors' and moving into adult lives.</p>

<p>There are at least three ways to approach this -- (1) start at community college, where the budget will not be blown on non-credit-conferring courses and the 8 semester budgetary clock is not ticking. Do well and transfer on to finish the bachelors' (maybe even at a better school than you would have gotten into originally). (2) enroll in a local low-level four-year school as a commuter, on a part-time basis, and try to find your feet without blowing through the budget. Accelerate to full time and maybe move onto campus when it is clear that you will be able to succeed with that, and finish within budget.
(3) go straight to a low-level four-year school out of HS and hope for the best, knowing that you will have some significant budgetary problems if you do poorly and have to transfer back to community college, reestablish, and then try to transfer out again.</p>

<p>Clearly the first scenario is financially safest. But in terms of admissions, everything is being gambled on success at that first college of enrollment, because the kid becomes a transfer applicant to four year schools thereafter. Access to lower-level four-year schools (that might have been assumed out of 12th grade) is jeopardized by a bad showing at the community college. On one level, if the kid cannot do college-level work at the CC, he probably can't do it anywhere. But there is a wild card -- attitude, context, companions. If the kid is demoralized about being at CC, his chances at a bachelors could be hurt, not helped, by his time there. If he finds something uplifting about being at a four-year school and rises to the occasion, it might work. This is where entering the four-year school as a part-time commuter might be the best of both worlds. It's also possible that their standards for keeping you (as one of their own, once you start) might actually be lower than their standards for accepting you as a transfer. So maybe the best shot at the bachelor's is to get right into the four-year school after HS, before you mess it up at CC.</p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

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<p>I don’t think it is close. Go to the CC. And emphasize developing maturity above all else. Taking on debt or losing financial optionality in 2012 is just deadly.</p>

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<p>In essence, let’s establish that the student can successfully carry a full semester load at the college level before paying more than necessary? That way, there’s some financial margin for error, if it takes a while to get there.</p>

<p>I realize there are a lot of four-year schools at the lower end of the totem pole that will take a full payor with a 2.8 gpa and 900-1000 SATs. But whether those kids earn degrees in 8 semesters, and more particularly the kinds of degrees that will get them work requiring the degree, is another question entirely.</p>

<p>The goal is not simply to have a degree. The goal is to earn the kind of degree that will qualify you for jobs that really require the degree; above and beyond what you could have gotten without the degree.</p>

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<p>I had a 2.8 GPA when I graduated hs and a 23 ACT. I had very limited accommodations in high school, just a laptop for notetaking the last two years. No extra time or anything like that, and no accommodations at all for ACT. I had ADHD, dyscalculia, and AS. I got into some low level 4 years that were very acceptable schools, but went to a CC for financial reasons. I should have had more accommodations in HS but we didn’t know any better at the time. </p>

<p>I was very lucky that my CC was equipped to handle my LDs-- a lot aren’t, which seems extremely counter intuitive as so many of us end up at CCs! That aspect of things worked well, and at the end of my two years of CC I had a 3.7 GPA and a 30 ACT. I transferred in-state to Umich. CC was a success for me.</p>

<p>In high school I hadn’t known about the dyscalculia yet. I was diagnosed as a college sophomore, so my time at the CC was my first real chance to learn math with the accommodations I needed, so that was a positive experience-- I did fail a math course freshman year and likely would have done the same at a four year. It cost a lot less money at the CC. In my other courses in high school, I was perfectly capable of doing well but was too bored to function and didn’t have the skills to cope with that… CC was a lot worse in that regard, however there was less busy work so it was easier for me to do whatever I needed to do to do well. It required less of my attention than high school had, and I also matured some in those years so the two factors combined helped me develop the academic chops I needed to be successful elsewhere. Overall, a positive experience.</p>

<p>The unforeseen consequences I mentioned in the other thread are negatives that are inherent to the transferring process, which affected me particularly adversely as a student with LDs. </p>

<p>I had used up all my space for electives and low-level courses at my two years at a CC and had nothing but the most difficult upper level classes left to take at the much harder university, and no time in my schedule to balance them with any other kinds of courses. I hadn’t taken any unnecessary courses at the CC, everything transferred to meet a requirement, but by nature there is nothing but 100 and 200 level classes available at a CC and so that was what I took. When I got to umich, I needed to either study part time, or to balance my schedule to include a mix of both challenging upper level courses and easier electives… otherwise I would be hugely overwhelmed. I couldn’t do that because it took me the full two years to fit in all the upper level courses that were required for my major, and there were a bunch that easily could have been taken sophomore year had they been offered at the school I was attending. So I was so overwhelmed that I basically never slept and ended up only graduating with another 2.8, and only making it through without some sort of mental or physical collapse by the skin of my teeth. My gpa in my major was higher, maybe a 3.3, but overall my time at Michigan was not an entirely successful experience. It was frustrating because intellectually the work was not over my head by a longshot, I grasped everything easily and enjoyed it, but there was just too much of it for me to keep up.</p>

<p>In addition to the time constraints and my last two years of college being so top heavy in terms of courseload, the lack of continuity in my accommodations was an issue. For example, I had learned to function in my foreign language classes with certain accommodations at the CC-- then I had a whole new set of accommodations at the new school because they weren’t willing to do it the same way, and I nearly failed a class trying to adjust. I never got higher than Cs in these courses, and my gpa at Umich was DEEPLY affected by that-- and nobody cared about my CC GPA while I was job hunting, only my two years at Umich, which were of course the most difficult years of college I took and are only two years to be compared to everybody elses four.</p>

<p>And, finally, as a student with AS, the social downsides of transferring were also a major issue. I feel like that shouldn’t really be a huge consideration, but it’s there. Nobody told me going in how much harder it is to make friends when there IS no freshman orientation, or freshman dorm, etc for you to participate in.</p>

<p>In my case, I needed to do WHATEVER it took to not put myself in that situation where I HAD to take 5 extremely difficult classes at a time, and finances permitting it would have been ideal to be able to keep the same accommodations all four years-- changing was very jarring. In hindsight, it would have been wise to go to school part time, maybe from the four year school from the beginning and commute to make it financially feasible. But that’s just me and my highly individualized circumstances. Each student has their own experiences, and many would be quite different from mine.</p>

<p>There is no cookie cutter answer which works for every child.</p>

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<p>Emaheev, this is extremely informative. Overall, from my perspective, it sounds like a success story. A roaring success, even if the final gpa was not everything you had hoped. </p>

<p>I see that junior and senior year become jam-packed with courses in your major, when you transfer from a CC. That could be a good thing, or too much of a good thing. Not everybody lives within commuting distance of a suitable four-year school. But for those who do, and are in the same boat academically, doing the upper-level part of the degree as a part-timer might be the answer.</p>

<p>To incur the expenses of living away from home, while only making part-time progress on the degree, could be a budget-buster. To be technically full-time, but padding the schedule with unnecessary easy courses and dragging out the time to completion, is really no different that being part-time. Probably more expensive. And even the easy classes require some effort, and would make it at least somewhat harder to get all the work done in the hard classes.</p>

<p>If it’s not too personal, was your major? Have you found work that uses the degree?</p>

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<p>I’ve been thinking about this a lot, especially since I know at least one LD student in my town who came back after a few weeks at a 4 year school and is now at community college. My son has a learning disability, and I seriously wonder if he’ll be able to maintain any kind of GPA in his first year away. </p>

<p>My sister chose to have her son do a 4 year school, but he’s living at home (which is another possibility). She just knew he wouldn’t be able to wake himself up, do his own laundry, and handle college.</p>

<p>I guess my approach will be to see how my son matures (he’s 16 now); see how he does in HS and on standardized tests; then make a choice given his attributes and my budget.</p>

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<p>I wonder if these students might do better in a quarter system rather than semesters? The classes move faster, but there is less to balance at once. Usually 3 courses instead of 4 or 5.</p>

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<p>My major was political science, and I work in insurance… there were no poli sci jobs in the region I wanted to work in that paid a livable wage. I like what I do, though.</p>

<p>There were a lot of easier courses I took in my first two years of college that could have been taken in any of the four years, things I took just for necessary electives rather than for prereqs. There were also harder courses that I took at Michigan that I definitely could have taken sophomore year, and some even freshman year. Being able to take a mixture of these courses across three or four years, rather than jam packing them into two, would have been necessary for me to graduate in four years with a good GPA… or, alternatively, only going at part time at Umich, which for me was a financial impossibility. Somebody elses mileage may vary… I am sure a lot of students could have handled my schedule at Michigan, just not me. For me, it was two years of school that were way too easy followed by two years of school that were way too hard.</p>

<p>ETA: Chockkisses-- I certainly would have. That was something I reflected on at some point senior year… wishing I had picked a school with a different system like that. I did much better summer semesters, even though the courses were more intense.</p>

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<p>One of the other variables, with living away at a four-year school, is how the recent HS grad reacts to the freedom. You can’t generalize. But when ADHD and executive function deficits are part of the mix, and the person has a history of being socially successful, it may not be the best thing for academic success for the person to be suddenly being set free from all parental governance, let loose with thousands of other 18 year olds in the same boat.</p>

<p>This is where somebody will always say “but they SHOULD be able to govern themselves; everybody else does it”. Well, not everybody else succeeds at it. The rate of graduation in 8 semesters with marketable degrees is not high among this population (not high among the general population, for that matter). And it is pointless when people who have only raised neurotypical kids talk about “shoulds” and assume that they are attainable for everyone. As someone else said recently on a different thread, if you really can’t do something, you won’t do it.</p>

<p>Nobody knows exactly where that line is, but as the parent writing the checks, and hopng to set the young person up for success, you have to make your best educated guess.</p>

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<p>I have often wondered about quarters vs. semesters. The quarter does permit you to immerse yourself. But the consequences of a bad week must be worse? And in courses where the concepts are sequential, or build on each other (such as math, or maybe in chemistry and physics, or with the vocabulary in foreign language) if a person has problems with slow processing speeds, I wonder if it could all just go too fast. Not enough time for the layers of varnish to dry. Any thoughts on this?</p>

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<p>That would just depend on the student. I’d be okay in that situation-- my main problem is that I can only juggle two balls in a world where everyone is expected to juggle six. I think other students might have exactly the problem you’re describing, and they’d do better with the slower pace of the semester system. For me, it is better to juggle two heavy balls for a short period of time than to try and juggle six lighter balls for a much longer period of time… if you can indulge my metaphor a little further. :stuck_out_tongue: </p>

<p>I think you’re definitely on to something for some kids, though. I used to run a club for students with LDs at umich and many of them would not have done well on the quarter system.</p>

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<p>I personally know kids with LD’s or ADHD who found that the CC environment affected motivation. I am a fan of CC’s and also know kids who zoomed through CC and transferred and did well. But as I said, there are kids for whom it is not a good idea.</p>

<p>I think that attending a 4 year residential college from the start can, in fact, work out really well- with the right supports. Registering with the disabilities office (with documentation), getting a list of accommodations (single room, extra time on tests or assignments, reduced course load etc.), meeting with dean and advisor and so on can make a huge difference. If peers are motivated and the environment even a little inspiring, good things can happen.</p>

<p>I continue to question the one size fits all model that we have here in this country. Rather than everyone going to college for a job, I think we need more jobs that will take people without college, and more respect for those jobs as well. The degree makes little difference in terms of job skills for many jobs.</p>

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<p>compmom makes a good point about some kids doing badly at a CC. You will never know if they are the same kids that would have fallen apart if they’d gone immediately to a four-year – maybe for other reasons. There is no control group. I can imagine a kid just losing momentum at a CC, not getting the grades if it all seems uninspiring and futile, and there’s no sense of being part of a peer group that is going places. What’s scary about this is that it will kill transfer prospects. Four-year schools that might have taken the 2.8, 900 SAT as an incoming freshman, may refuse to take the same kid when he applies as a 1.5 gpa transfer student from CC. If the kid enrolls at CC, he really has to make it work there.</p>

<p>I can imagine that same kid, with a full-time schedule at a residential four-year, perhaps being in over his head with the work load, freaking out a bit, and responding to that by procrastinating or socializing too much, and flunking out.</p>

<p>Maybe a part-time schedule at an academically attainable four-year school, commuting from home, is the safest first step. It would cost more than CC, but if the cost could be managed, it’s an option. As an incentive, there would be the prospect of stepping it up full time and moving onto campus – or transferring to a different residential campus, further from home, once it’s established that the person can handle a full-time load.</p>

<p>Another factor to consider is whether the person wants to succeed enough to take advantage of the LD supports that are available. It is easier, in the short run, not to do that. No pesky meetings to attend. No need to produce a final draft of your paper a week before it’s due so that you can review it with someone – why not just crank it out at the last minute? Because we wouldn’t be having this conversation if you could crank out A or B work at the last minute.</p>

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<p>On the other hand, the need for executive functioning doesn’t stop once you graduate from college. You’re still expected to show up to work on time every day, complete work and turn it in within a set time frame, etc. Are most workplaces significantly more structured/less EF dependent than college? (I’m honestly asking).</p>

<p>As both a person with a significant (physical) disability and a grad student/professional with a focus on disability, I’m truly not at all unsympathetic to the argument. EF skills just seem like such an all-encompassing “must have” for both work and school. Maybe I’m wrong? I’m more than open to being educated here. :)</p>

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<p>I think it depends, psych_. I had horrible executive functioning for school but it hasn’t been a problem for me, at all, professionally and I’ve been working full time for a year now. Part of it is my job, I have a job that has a very reasonable workload-- sometimes it is very heavy and perhaps even unreasonable but that isn’t the norm. And my job is also done at 5pm most days, I rarely if ever have homework to take home. In school, my big problem was that I had class 8-10 hours a day, then I have 5-6 hours of homework afterward. That didn’t leave a whole lot of time for eating and sleeping and making it to appointments on time, and then I got overly tired and sickly and everything started falling apart. I can go home after work and recover from the day enough to do it again the next day no problem.</p>

<p>However, I admittedly do have problems at home. I am not keeping up with my fair share of the housework during the week, I am trying very hard but I keep falling apart by the time I get home from the gym after work. I try to make up for it by doing most everything on the weekend so my boyfriend gets a break… but I am not as successful at home as I would like to be. It seems I only have enough gas in me to accomplish so much in a day… I can do work and basic life necessities like eating and bathing but not much else without stretching myself VERY thin.</p>

<p>It’s important for a student with executive functioning issues to pick a career, and a position within that career, that is appropriate for their needs. There is a reason why I opted out of doing campaign work or law like I’d originally intended… it would have been a disaster for me. I do have some flexibility in me and I do have the ability to stretch myself thinner occasionally when needed, but a job with fairly fixed and predictable hours, and not much more than 40 in a regular week, is necessary for me to be successful.</p>

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<p>Commuting to a school where most students live on campus, can also cause problems: feelings of alienation and problems really getting to know other students, as well as the logistical issue of finding places to be between classes (others can go back to their rooms and nap, or do work, and don’t have to carry everything around with them for the day either). The first months/year of college is when most students make their friends for the rest of their time at school, and a commuter would miss a lot of that socializing.</p>

<p>Assuming a certain level of maturity (and a gap year or two can ensure that, at least to the extent possible), I think a carefully chosen 4 year school that is residential, small, interactive and provides a lot of support can work well. It cannot be a school where the student would be lost in a crowd. There are also specialty schools like Landmark, for kids with LD. Landmark can be for 4 years, or simply a bridge to another school.</p>

<p>And, of course, CC’s offer curricula that provide direct paths to careers through 2 year degrees, and there are other routes to jobs as well (apprenticeships, trade schools, internships, other types of training and non-academic programs). So if a student has a clear idea of working as an x-ray tech. or fire science or nursing, CC’s work out wonderfully.</p>

<p>I truly believe that there are fulfilling paths, training and careers for students with any kind of challenge, and the problems arise only when trying to fit the proverbial square in the round hole. So finding the right school is key.</p>

<p>p.s. The scenario of a student needing to hand in a draft and preferring to do it last minute doesn’t really fit the picture that I have seen…instead, a motivated, hard working student with LD or ADHD or other challenges is known by staff (at the right school) to really want to get work in on time, but when this is not possible, is given extra time. The point is, that student is not able to do things at the last minute (as you said), because papers take too long for that. Instead, the student has to work many times harder than others and start much earlier, and a school that understand this is the school that will work out. There needn’t be a lot of meetings, and accommodations can be established via documentation sent in ahead of time. However, supportive meetings should be available at all times.</p>

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<p>I teach at CC, and there are students who don’t do well. No question. However, we have many more who have tried 4 years schools (some quite prestigious) who crash and burn and come to CC.</p>

<p>One of my students who had a drinking problem of GW is now graduating from Sarah Lawrence. I helped her be admitted, and I am very proud of her.</p>

<p>Another from this semester will be going to Columbia’s General Studies program for older students.</p>

<p>I really think the ones who don’t succeed for the most part would not succeed away at a 4 year school. I’m sure in some cases the schools like Landmark that compmom mentions are excellent options where the majority of kids would succeed, but I imagine they would also succeed at CC. It probably wouldn’t be as much fun though. And I think that’s a valid consideration.</p>

<p>However, in 30 years of teaching at CC (I have also taught at a state u and a local private school) I have never seen a student “demoralized by being a community college.” I may have seen a few disappointed in their lot, or more than a few, but demoralized? No.</p>

<p>This semester I have a student who read THE RAPE OF NANKING in his spare time. He speaks four languages fluently and had insights into HAMLET that Harold Bloom would want to steal. I also have students who can’t put together a coherent paragraph and we work on that, phrase by phrase and sentence by sentence.</p>

<p>If I could afford the freight and we were talking about my child, I would choose the Landmark route as compmom suggests because it is more exciting, fun and expansive. However, I see remarkable success for all sorts of kids at CC and much less failure than I would have expected.</p>

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<p>OP again, thanking you all for input, and welcoming any further comments.</p>