protestant at notre dame?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Notre Dame
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<p>Irish, I wanted to clarify the Church’s policy.</p>

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<p>This is from the Code of Canon Law.</p>

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<p>From Redemptionis Sacramentum.</p>

<p>In other words, the Protestants need to be in dire circumstances, e.g. bleeding out, profess to Catholic understanding of the Sacraments, and have no recourse to ministers of their own church.</p>

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<p>These are the requirements for Catholics, which of course require belief in the True Presence.</p>

<p>As mentioned, the question is whether adults who are baptized into the faith “count” as full Catholics even if they were formerly Protestant. I would say no, given that Confirmation is a sacrament that is normally held by people of that age and it indicates full and conscious membership in the Catholic Church. I know that it is not a requirement per se, but it becomes difficult to discern who is “Catholic” unless there is an obvious outward sign – Confirmation, which never requires waiting more than a year to receive the relevant sacraments. </p>

<p>In other words, I don’t think that the regulations intend to have everyone who accepts Catholic teaching and is baptized to receive the Eucharist. Rather, I believe that it intends the “Catholics” to be identified by participation in all the sacraments that are the norm for that age.</p>

<p>Of critical importance is also that the Eucharist is itself a sacrament (duh) and that children go through First Communion. It’s there for a reason.</p>

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<p>can’t help but appreciate the irony of a detailed, nuanced, discussion of Catholic policy in a thread started by a non-Catholic who’s curious about how hard it would be to fit in. :)</p>

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<p>Protestants fit in well at ND. Dorm mass isn’t even close to mandatory if you don’t want to go, and campus ministry helps protestants find churches off campus.</p>

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<p>“The Church cannot willingly deny the fruits of the Sacraments to anyone whose heart is able to receive the grace of God.”</p>

<p>Agreed. And obviously there are situations in which requiring some preparatory work would be inappropriate – for example, in remote parts of Africa or Asia, or just about anywhere in a Muslim country, where priests and Bibles are virtually non-existent.
However, here in the US, and particularly at a place like Notre Dame that is blessed with a super-abundance of priests and other spiritual resources, a person would have little justification for claiming such a “conversion of heart” that exempted him from any study or preparation.
Even St. Paul had to be instructed after he got knocked down on the road to Damascus…</p>

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<p>Hi all, I’m new to this forum. As a life long Catholic who was educated from kindergarten through law school in Catholic schools, I have two things to say.</p>

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<li><p>The short answer is that Irish45221 is wrong. Sure, it’s a little nuanced, maybe, but it is without question the general rule that non-Catholics aren’t eligible for communion in Catholic masses. They just aren’t. How many of you have gone to a Catholic wedding with a full mass when either the bride or groom isn’t Catholic? And what typically happens at those weddings? The priest reminds the congregation that if you’re not Catholic you should refrain from taking communion. He doesn’t say it’s ok to take communion even if you’re not Catholic so long as you’ve accepted in spirit the doctrine of transubstantiation (for the non-Catholics among you, that the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Christ). Like it or not, that’s just the way it is. In fact, when our daughter married a non-Catholic in a Catholic wedding we elected not to have a full mass for this very reason – it was enough to ask that the groom’s family go for a Catholic ceremony without also making them feel uncomfortable come communion time.</p></li>
<li><p>The real question to ask about Notre Dame isn’t whether you can be Protestant, non-Catholic, or non-religious and go there. It’s whether you can be a liberal or free thinker at Notre Dame. It’s interesting to me how Notre Dame has gotten so much press in recent years over the Obama appearance, etc., with commentators and older graduates lamenting that the school has gotten too liberal. From what I’ve seen, read, and witnessed (from visiting campus and interviewing law students, for example), Notre Dame – particularly its administration – is rigidly conservative, focused far too much on numbers (both SATs and endowment), and is no longer a great place to go to school. </p></li>
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<p>The most recent edition of the alumni magazine included a hard-hitting letter by the wife of an ND grad (who came from a family of ND grads) saying that they’d never dream of sending any of their children to Notre Dame because of its attitude towards gay and lesbian students. I for one feel the same way. When I attended Notre Dame as a law student twenty years ago it just wasn’t the conservative school that it is today, at least not the law school. I find it very hard to do my part as a successful NDLS alum in helping students land jobs when the law school’s recruiting brochure goes to great lengths to explain that the school doesn’t discriminate against gays and lesbians only because it can’t – not because it doesn’t want to – and when virtually every resume that I ever see from the school is from a far right-winger. It simply wasn’t that way when I was there.</p>

<p>Maybe the undergrad school is different, but I doubt it. And it’s a real shame.</p>

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<p>Claremarie I completely agree with you on that point. Catechesis (education) is always helpful and can help build genuine passion for faith. If it is available, people should definitely go for it. At Notre Dame where the resources are so rich it is a no brainer. And if the conversion of heart happened because of ND, it seems only fitting that the candidate should seek the help of Campus Ministry or Holy Cross in seeking initiation.</p>

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<p>NDLAWGRAD, before you flat out say I am wrong please take the time and read the discussion that claremarie and I have been having these past few days. I never said it was okay for Protestants in general to receive the Eucharist. I also never said that if you accept the doctrine of Transubstantiation that it is perfectly fine for a Protestant to receive Communion. What I have been trying to get at is the simple point that if a Protestant is having a true conversion of heart (spirit but NOT MIND or BRAIN) then the Church cannot place additional roadblocks (mainly extra education) in front of her that prevent her from receiving the Sacraments as the principle effect of the Sacraments is to imprint Sacramental Character and Grace on the hearts of the recipient. This is why it is perfectly fine to Confirm an infant immediately after Baptism.</p>

<p>As far as Notre Dame “not being a great place to go to school” I have to disagree with you. I have never personally witnessed any form of discrimination at ND. Can you name any specific incidents? I don’t doubt that this may have happened in the past but I cannot think of any recent ones. The Gay and Lesbian community is also given the privilege of speaking to the entire Freshman class each and every year. No other community on campus is given this privilege.</p>

<p>I also think it is unfair to base your entire opinion of ND on a couple visits to campus and the opinions of a few law students. If you are basing your entire opinion of ND on this then you are really missing the big picture. I cannot think of a more open, genuine, and welcoming place to attend college.</p>

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<p>“From what I’ve seen, read, and witnessed (from visiting campus and interviewing law students, for example), Notre Dame – particularly its administration – is rigidly conservative, focused far too much on numbers (both SATs and endowment), and is no longer a great place to go to school.”</p>

<p>Well, you are conflating two issues here. I agree that the admissions office has become too focused on the almighty SAT score (though I don’t agree that there is too much emphasis on the endowment. Focusing on the endowment is a necessary fact of life for any top university today).<br>
But I cannot agree that Notre Dame has become too “conservative.” I respectfully suggest that you spend a bit more time on campus. Perhaps, if you are comparing it to the left-wing havens that all of its peer institutions have become, then, yes, Notre Dame IS more conservative. But the truth is that Notre Dame is far more diverse than those peer universities, and, in that diversity, far more reflective of the real world. That diversity was on display during the entire Obama episode, in which members of the ND community were well represented on all sides of the issue. There were faculty members who openly criticized Fr. Jenkins for the Obama invitation, but far more who gave him a standing ovation at last spring’s President’s Dinner. (A number of those who were standing and cheering then were quite dismayed at Fr. Jenkins’ decision to attend the March for Life in DC this past January). There are members of the administration (and even more faculty) who would be secretly delighted if ND were to abandon its Catholic mission, and others who are determined not to let that happen. There are students who complain about the single-sex dorms and parietals, and others who turned down the Ivy League because they wanted to attend a school with a chapel in every dorm.<br>
It’s not the “liberal” or “free thinkers” who will dislike Notre Dame; rather it’s those who aren’t comfortable unless everyone else around them thinks just like they do.</p>

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<p>WOW! From a thread that was started about being protestant at Notre Dame, what a discussion!</p>

<p>As a parent who has a recent protestant grad, #1 for us was the education considering the price tag. I don’t think anyone can dispute the fact that it offers a great education, whether one is Catholic, Protestant, atheist, etc.</p>

<p>WOW!</p>

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<p>The ND law school was more conservative than the undergrad school 25 years ago, and I would assume it still is. Just because a student or administration takes a conservative or liberal viewpoint, it should make no difference on respecting free speech in this country. Unfortunately, I have heard too many stories regarding the stifling of conservative thought in the majority of our universities. I have a client who was forced to leave Dartmouth for a semester for activities associated with an off campus conservative newspaper. Federal judges, who had graduated from Dartmouth, wrote an article for the Wall Street Journal, ashamed of their alma mater. A friend’s son was ridiculed only two years ago at the University of Pennsylvania law school for daring to express his midwestern thoughts, deemed too conservative by his classmates.</p>

<p>While Notre Dame may be a conservative campus and even more conservative law school, I cannot recall a single instance of anyone being ridiculed for their free speech, liberal or conservative when I was in law school. It’s too bad that current Ivy leaguers can’t do the same. This is a college campus where free speech should reign supremely.</p>

<p>As a local ND club officer, I was interviewed by local television after the announcement of President Obama as commencement speaker last year. As I stated then, this is not Nazi Germany. We do not burn books and we do not stifle free speech. While I did not vote for the man, I must respect his office, as President of the United States, and I must respect his right to free speech. If people feel strongly one way or the other about an issue, such as abortion, then they should be willing to let the merits of both sides be heard. If you truly support the superior issue, your side will win in the long run. Only those afraid of what the other side has to say will seek to stifle that speech.</p>

<p>As Claremarie said, it is not whether someone is liberal or conservative, it is whether they are willing to let both sides be heard. I would posit that unlike most other universities today, Notre Dame is more willing to let both sides be heard. When some are arguing that the school has become too conservative while others argue too liberal, that sounds like a balancing of opinions. If there are those who think Notre Dame is too conservative for their taste, they will have no trouble finding a school where liberal thought is supreme.</p>

<p>And yes, I too received a nasty voicemail from a fellow domer for expressing my right of free speech in defending my alma mater for selecting the President of the United States to be commencement speaker. We should not be forced to listen to commencement speeches by news anchors simply to avoid offending anyone. A spirited debate, as evidenced by this thread, is fantastic for advancing thought. Good job everyone.</p>

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<p>The problem is allowing any individual to claim that they have had such a conversion – the point of education is ensure that all going into whatever the result may be have fully realized that conversion of spirit. In other words, how can I believe in something I don’t understand at all or don’t know about?</p>

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<p>First, let me just say: say the word and I’ll start a new thread on the topic that I brought up on how stiflingly conservative Notre Dame has become. I don’t mean to hijack the discussion at hand.</p>

<p>I hear you on the idea that the law school might be more conservative than the undergraduate school, but I have to point out that it’s hard to separate the two populations: the law school has always had, and continues to have, a huge number of “Double Domers,” and the large majority are conservative. Perhaps the typical Double Domer isn’t representative of the undergraduate student body as a whole, but I tend to I doubt it. What’s more likely is that these students are the most “in love” with Notre Dame and its ideals and thus chose to stay there for another three years rather than attend a comparable or better law school. Of course, I cannot say this for sure.</p>

<p>What I can tell you is this: the reputation of the Notre Dame Law School, fairly or not, is suffering not because it is conservative per se but because so many of its students are, frankly, so in your face about it. I’m hardly a raging liberal myself; I just think there’s a time and a place for everything. In my opinion, a good resume that reflects the best judgment is one that clearly demonstrates accomplishment but leaves the reader guessing, at least a little, on the applicant’s politics or religious or social views. You often do not see this from a Notre Dame law student. Instead, it seems like every student is the president of the federalist society (a far right wing group) and is active in the pro life movement. I once interviewed an ND law student who said she would never consider working for another highly regarded law firm in town because among its stellar and varied pro bono work was work for Planned Parenthood; the applicant was completely oblivious to the fact that some lawyers at my firm also do such work while other lawyers here represent conservative causes. There’s nothing wrong with being a conservative, but – at least when you’re looking for a job in a law firm – there’s a lot wrong with appearing to wear an agenda on your sleeve. Conservative, liberal, whatever; it makes employers think twice about how open minded you can be. </p>

<p>I am downright embarrassed for my alma mater at times by the resumes I see and by the students I talk to. I never felt that way when I was a student twenty years ago. Something at ND has changed, and I doubt it’s just at the law school.</p>

<p>On Irish4221’s point, fine, there are exceptions, but no one can credibly argue that the Catholic church is anywhere near as open as most Protestant churches in allowing worshippers of a different faith from participating in its rituals, particularly communion. I’m not saying this is wrong, and I’m not saying it should change. The Church can do whatever it wants. All I’m saying is that this is truly the way it is and if as a non-Catholic you find it offensive then you might not want to go to Notre Dame.</p>

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<p>the Federalist society is a far right group? Didn’t Roberts, Scalia, Alito, and Thomas participate? 4/9 supreme court justices are “far right wing”? I have some friends who want to go into public policy for groups like Cato and etc. Is not being ashamed of your politics a reason to be shunned as “too conservative”?</p>

<p>Is there something about being Protestant that should make you shun conservative politics?</p>

<p>In my experience, the Republican Democrat balance is pretty even with the edge maybe going Republican. Also in my experience the most close minded people I know tend to be Liberals in peace studies or something of the like.</p>

<p>Really? You take issue with someone disliking a company because it does pro bono work for planned parenthood? Would you have a problem with a liberal who didn’t want to do pro bono work with the NRA?</p>

<p>ND is a place where you’ll be ridiculed less for being conservative. Because of this conservatives feel more comfortable being here and we get more of them than our peer institutions.</p>

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<p>Given the state of the economy and that many firms(spouse’s firm hired 1 new grad last year) are simply not hiring new law grads, it would seem that perhaps these conservative laden resumes that you speak of are not doing the trick with regards to employment. If these students are indeed wearing their conservatism on their sleeves, then I imagine that the longer they are without employment, they will clean up those resumes, etc. </p>

<p>I cannot speak to the conservatism of the law school, only undergrad, and from the viewpoint of a parent whose student/now grad is non-Catholic. As I stated before, it was never an issue. In fact, I can share that our student lived in a dorm for 4 years, and never once had a priest personally invite our student to mass. (Perhaps the priest noticed on the app that our student was protestant even tho last name might indicate otherwise?!?) Yes, ND is a conservative school–we new that before student applied, and as long as many understand that up front, it is really not an issue (our student has always held more conservative views so the fit was good). However, we think that discussion/dialogue is very prevalent, but then again, perhaps our student, an eng major, just really didn’t get that involved in discussions/dialogue. (Didn’t have time–studied a lot of the time!) Maybe that (discussion/dialogue) is what is different now about ND or maybe the school is more diverse now, than it was 20 years ago. I guess there are more non-Catholics at ND so the push for dialogue/discussion is evident. If the conservative faction is as hard core as you suggest, then is it because non-Catholics/diversity are not wanted at the school? </p>

<p>As to the communion–as I mentioned in a previous post, the only flaw that may exist on campus for non-Catholics is whether it is made clear in weekly masses. The communion issue is not anything new–we were married over 26 years ago in the Catholic Church, spouse was Catholic. We were discouraged from having communion mass, as priest thought it might make the marriage start off splintered from the start - or so that was the explanation given–it made since, and yes we are still happily married, and we have remained true to our respective religions.</p>

<p>Thanks numbersguy for a great post–dialogue and discussion are so very important!</p>

<p>Finally, for those protestants that might feel out of place–you won’t be out of place. And consider the education you will receive at ND–I stand by many posts I have made about the support and undergrad focus that exists on campus. If as a non-Catholic you understand that there are weekly masses, no co-ed dorms, Theology requirements (although there may be some other schools that also require Theo-Princeton (maybe?) comes to mind), you will be fine. There are plenty of colleges and universities across this country, each with their own unique qualities and during the visiting/app process, hopefully they are discovered before a student/parent writes the first check or attends that first class. I noticed on another thread that someone questioned why the poster wanted to come to ND if non-Catholic–poster indicated it was for Mendoza. Clearly, the education is worth it!</p>

<p>I hope I have not offended anyone with my post…</p>

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<p>“In my opinion, a good resume that reflects the best judgment is one that clearly demonstrates accomplishment but leaves the reader guessing, at least a little, on the applicant’s politics or religious or social views. You often do not see this from a Notre Dame law student. Instead, it seems like every student is the president of the federalist society (a far right wing group) and is active in the pro life movement.”</p>

<p>I used to serve on the hiring committee at my law firm. I can’t tell you how many times I read resumes from students at top 10 schools touting their pro-bono work for NOW, the ACLU, the Human Rights Council (a pro-gay group), and various Democratic operatives. Perhaps Notre Dame’s students stand out because they don’t fit into the “top law student” liberal mold. Many students made a deliberate choice to attend Notre Dame rather than a higher-ranked law school precisely because they didn’t want to put their religious convictions on hold for three years.</p>

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<p>Quote: “*n my experience the most close minded people I know tend to be Liberals in peace studies or something of the like.”</p>

<p>It’s interesting how Notre Dame boosters can insist in one sentence that the school is more diverse in viewpoint and more tolerant and accepting than its peer institutions, then in the very next sentence dismiss any criticism of the university as coming from a presumed liberal and then attack the liberals!</p>

<p>Quote: “I can’t tell you how many times I read resumes from students at top 10 schools touting their pro-bono work for NOW, the ACLU, the Human Rights Council (a pro-gay group), and various Democratic operatives.” </p>

<p>If you’d go back and read my prior post without getting your guard up, you’ll see that I take issue not only with conservatives who wear their agendas on their sleeves but also liberals. </p>

<p>This is the real problem with Notre Dame. You talk until you are blue in the face about how “tolerant” you are, but when push comes to shove you’re not. I’d never send a kid there.</p>

<p>By the way, the Human Rights Council is hardly a “pro-gay group.” It’s a UN organization with a broad mission. Perhaps you’re thinking of the Human Rights CAMPAIGN, which a working for EQUAL rights for gays and lesbians. Not exactly “pro” gay.</p>

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<p>by and large, politically most ND students are apathetic politically. The different schools tend to attract different political bents. Arts & Letters tends to be liberal, Business Conservative, and the other departments aren’t as politically engaged. (Partially because they are more time demanding)</p>

<p>Most kids at ND are tolerant of other views. There are exceptions both conservative and liberal. The exceptions are more prevalent in certain majors. That is all I was trying to get across.</p>

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<p>“If you’d go back and read my prior post without getting your guard up, you’ll see that I take issue not only with conservatives who wear their agendas on their sleeves but also liberals.”</p>

<p>Then there must be a very short pile of acceptable resumes, since the activities and past employment of many law students (especially those applying to DC firms) will tend to reveal their political or other leanings. When I was reviewing resumes, I looked for indicators of intelligence, such as grades/Moot Court/Law Review/federal clerkships, and didn’t pay too much attention to the other stuff. </p>

<p>If you’d never “send a kid” to Notre Dame because you object to its policies regarding gay and lesbian students, then your real objection must be to the teachings of the Catholic Church rather than the “tolerance,” or lack thereof, at Notre Dame.</p>

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<p>Wow. Claremarie, you’re not even listening to me. I can only refer you to my prior posts, where I indicated that my entire education – from kindergarten through law school – was at Catholic institutions. If it’s one thing I learned through my Catholic education it’s that one can be both Catholic and tolerant, except at Notre Dame. Maybe that’s how they came up with the slogan “Nowhere else but Notre Dame.”</p>

<p>It’s funny, or sad, really. The last time I visited campus was when I was interviewing law students at the law school and brought my youngest daughter, a high school senior, along with me to check out the undergraduate school. An older daughter had been accepted and turned it down, and I had this nostalgiac vision that maybe my younger daughter would go there. We were both, well, just horrified by the feeling of preppiness, wealth, privilege, and lack of diversity on campus – and then I found myself interviewing one rigidly right wing law student after another. I had a great experience at Notre Dame, and the school was good to me. But it’s not the same school that it was, and I could never, ever send a kid there. And it’s got nothing to do with the Catholic church.</p>

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<p>“Horrified?” Really? That seems a very strong word to me. Surely you found preppiness, wealth, privilege at some other T20 schools? </p>

<p>Yes, there is parental money, but as my S’s rector said to me early in freshman year–very few ND students flaunt it, and certainly less so than I saw at some other campuses. The students I have met, and there are many–I am nearby–do not act “priveleged”, whether or not they have money. I have seen incredible amounts of involvement in community and social justice issues. The students are incredibly respectful and friendly.</p>

<p>If you could “never, ever” send a kid there, why did you have a nostalgic vision of such? Many parents must not share your concerns, as ND is perpetually at the top of the “parents’ dream school” list. It’s also at the top of the lists for students at their #1 choice school.</p>

<p>As for diversity, I think it’s the overwrought word of the decade. I don’t expect diversity of religion at a major Catholic university. My S was from a very small, public, rural school. He participates heavily in an unique EC, at a state and national level. I know it’s something very rare for a ND student. There are other students in parallel situations. I think that brings diversity, but when people say ND has “no” diversity, it’s usual code for “non-white”.</p>

<p>I am sorry you feel so negatively about ND. Our experience has been anything but, and I will be forever grateful that my white, Protestant, financial-aid kid was given this opportunity. In answer to the OP, as others have noted, I see no problems for Protestants. There are absolutely no “shove it in your throat–you must participate” vibes. ND is a Catholic university and adheres to those values and missions. If you are in alignment with those, or they do not bother you, you’ll be good to go.</p>