<p>Welcome, threetogo. Being a relatively new member here myself, I am certainly no expert. However, I feel confident in saying that your son's PSAT scores don't matter one bit, other than the fact that he did not qualify as a National Merit semifinalist. So what? I doubt that MIT participates in the NM program anyway, as many high caliber schools don't. Colleges do not look at PSAT scores for entrance - which is why they are Preliminary SATs. Everyone needs to learn to deal with disappointment, and it is hardest for high achievers. I would suggest that you let your son know that he should view this as an opportunity to see where he can improve. Many students who have mastery of the content simply are not familiar with the test taking environment. Did he prep at all? I think the best thing you can do for him is to let him know that devastation is not warranted here. In so far as others asking, a simple "I'd rather not say" should be fine. No one will know whether he's dissatisfied with his grades or simply prefers not to brag.</p>
<p>3-to-go, please read the post of my friend Emmitt Smith. I think there are many lessons to learn from his story, and some of them might help your son. Please remember that advanced calculus does not help anyone on the PSAT or the SAT. Please tell your son that the P in PSAT stands for PAST. There is no reason to fret about it and it won't make a bit of difference for his future admissions. Lots of students do much better on the SAT than on the PSAT.<br>
You can click on the link below for the thread, but I also copied and pasted it for simplicity sake. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Thank you for the congrats </p>
<p>I can understand why you want to hear about my distinctions, but I'm going to be honest with you and say that I'm not really an outstanding person. I think I have a terrible personality; I have absolutely no tact, a knack for ALWAYS telling annoying, unfunny, and sometimes offensive jokes, and I even have some unintentional arrogance (I?ve been trying to work on that though). Now, I'm not trying to put myself down. I understand everyone has negative qualities, and I'm just trying to paint a reasonable picture of myself. On the plus side, I am a decent human being; I always try to do the right thing (never cheat, try to be nice, etc.) and am very hard working.</p>
<p>I go to a real bad public school. In fact, in it's 60 or 70 year history, I am the first student to be accepted to MIT. I went through the public school system and wasn't a spectacular student growing up, in consequence, I am really bad at simple stuff like arithmetic and spelling (I studied for the Writing SAT II so my grammar is now better).</p>
<p>Why did I get in?</p>
<p>I'm going to be honest--because I honestly wanted it and REALLY worked for it. </p>
<p>Since middle school, I have always wanted to go to MIT. Admittedly, I wasn't a spectacular student (even though I may have thought I was). The only thing I had going for me was a strong interest and knowledge in computers.</p>
<p>When I got to high school, I knew what my goal was. It was at that point when I decided I would set out to accomplish it. I would dedicate myself to that goal. I wouldn't let anything stand in my way.</p>
<p>I sucked at math. Really. I didn't know arithmetic, I didn't know fractions, I didn't know algebra; I didn?t even know how to divide with a calculator. I struggled through freshman algebra, yet due to the quality of my school?s curriculum, I still managed an A. Sophomore year, I realized that the school curriculum couldn't help me. I then began my independent study in math. I found a REALLY good Algebra 2 book (College Algebra Stewart, Redlin, et. al.). I then discovered that everyone?s brain is VERY different and how easy things are to understand when they are described in a way that your brain likes. Within 2 terms, I finished Algebra 2 and Precalculus. During the next term, I did geometry. I then took the Math IIc and scored a 780 -- this was the first time I ever did well on a standardized test (before I got proficient or so on MCAS and the like).</p>
<p>Before my SAT II test, my PSAT score was something like 550 Math 560 Verbal 520 Writing. So I worked. Instead of admitting it was impossible, as most people would have done and have done, I continued pressing hard. I studied math so much that it became a hobby. Junior year? 680 math, 540 verbal, 540 writing. I then studied hard for the Writing SAT II and scored a 650. I continued studying and got a 770, shocking the hell out of myself. At that point, I realized that ANYONE can score well on standardized tests, provided one knows the test and the test material well enough.</p>
<p>Junior year, I bit off more than I could chew. I took all of my school's AP classes (Calc, Enviro. Sci., US Hist., and English). I worked VERY hard, sacrificing anything that resembled a high school social life (on week days at least). I ended up scoring a 5/5 on the BC test, a 4 on the APES test, a 4 on APUS, and a 3 on Eng, all of which are certainly out of the ballpark for my school (I was the first kid to take the BC Exam; the first kid to score above a 3 on any AP math test too).</p>
<p>I took the SAT Is with some studying Junior year and scored a 1310 (700 Math 610 Verbal). I was convinced I must have mis-sequenced, so I registered the month after and scored a 1360 (730 Math 630 Verbal). I was now humbled. But, I again continued with determination.</p>
<p>After a summer of studying (NOT every night. I took about 15 real practice tests and read the Grammatix.com study guide and studied about 400 vocab. words), I retook the SATs in my Senior year. I scored a 1490 (720 Math 770 Verbal), yielding a combined 730 Math 770 Verbal.</p>
<p>Now, in the meanwhile, I have been running a computer repair/consulting business for a few years. I also have been teaching programming. I got REALLY good recommendations from my football coach/track coach (I am a captain of both, due to my dedication to said sports)/ APES/Bio/Marine Eco and from someone with whom I worked on a web programming project who works at Harvard.</p>
<p>Also, when I asked for advertisement for my business, the local newspaper wrote an article on me detailing most of this. In the article, it mentioned how I REALLY want to go to MIT. I sent that in with my application.</p>
<p>Now, I'm just trying to answer your question. I really am not trying to brag. Believe me, when compared to my future classmates (oh geeze!) I am TOTALLY humbled.</p>
<p>So besides answering your question what is my point? DO NOT EVER BACK DOWN FROM YOUR DREAMS. Anything, ANYTHING is accomplishable. Just make sure that you work as hard as you can and adhere to a moral way of life. If you truly want it, you will get it. That is something of which I am convinced.</p>
<p>Underclassmen readers who aspire as I once did, take this message as the truth. Three years ago, I was a moronic, stereotypical football player ignorant in every way of math and science. If you really want it, DO NOT be scared to work for it (whatever ?it? may be). And work for it as hard as you possibly can. Finally, and most importantly, do not let any of the obstacles that will present themselves cause you to lose hope or give up. That is why a lot of people never accomplish their dreams.</p>
<p>Well, I'm rambling now. I hope someone gets something out of this. Good luck to all of you, I hope I am in CC company next year
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</p>
<p>3-to-go: No, MIT does not give any National Merit money. </p>
<p>However, while I'm with Xiggi's friend that standardized testing skills can be learned, your son must be aware that those PSAT scores are not good enough to get into MIT, and that he'll have to work very hard to get into MIT.</p>
<p>He might want to look at RPI, however, which is doing some very cool stuff in engineering (and which seems to be more interested than MIT in their undergraduates). (My DH went there and we get their newsletters, as well as occasionally hosting alumni/ae parties when RPI reps are around here, so I'm very aware of what they're doing--plus several former students have gone there.) If his school offers it, and if RPI appeals to him, he might want to ask to be nominated for the RPI medal--which comes with a $15K (per year) merit scholarship--which beats anything NM offers.</p>
<p>First 3-to-go, Welcome to College Confidential.</p>
<p>I agree with everything said so far but especially with the idea that it is never a good idea to focus exclusively on one "dream school" to the exclusion of considering other great opportunities. Tell your son that his dream of MIT is great, but he needs to also look at all the options out there - as dmd says, there are quite a few exciting and interesting engineering programs available these days. I'd suggest you get a copy of the Fiske Guide if you haven't already and have your son start reading up on other schools besides just focusing on MIT. College Confidential is also a terrific place to find out about other great schools. </p>
<p>That's not to say that your son won't pull up his SATs and get into MIT, it's just to say that there are so many wonderful options out there that it is silly really to focus ONLY on a school that is a reach for everyone who applies. Encourage him to fall in love with several other schools as well.</p>
<p>Tell your son that it will all work out in the end. That is what I have told my daughter and that is what I believe after reading this board for the past three years. There are simply too many stories of kids that ended up in great schools not to believe that.</p>
<p>3 to go, the psat scores won't matter at all in college admissions.</p>
<p>This might help your son some on the critical reading.
1. ALWAYS read the part at the top in italics that gives an overview of the passage.
2. SKIP the general questions about the passage as a whole.
3. A lot of the questions ask what a word means, "which word could replace word X in line 13". If you read from a couple lines above it, to a couple lines below it, you can get the idea of what it is talking about, and can generally find the right word.
4. Other than the above, there are questions that ask about specific parts of the passage, which do not require you having read the whole passage to answer. (It's been 2 years since I took them, so I can't give a more exact description of this kind of question, sorry)
5. You will find that after reading above and below the questions with line numbers, that you have actually read 80-90% of the passage. NOW is the time to answer the general questions. (This stops you from reading the passage twice. Because if you read it through once, then look at line 13, above and below, line 26, above and below, line 41, above and below, etc, you are reading the same thing again, which is unnecessary)</p>
<p>That might be able to help your son, if he was reading the passage twice, he can cut down significantly on time.</p>
<p>/That's what I learned when I took a Princeton Review course. However, my verbal score also dropped from 630 to 610 (which just says that I didn't improve any, only a difference of a couple questions), which is to say I didn't improve any, however, I had a lot more time left over when I finished the sections, to disect the analogies, however it clearly didn't help, lol. They also wanted me to memorize like 800 vocab words or some ridiculous number, and I was not going to play that game.</p>
<p>Thanks everyone for your comments. I read a few of your suggestions to my son last night. I think that the reason this was so hard for him is because no one from the school ever got a merit scholarship and the hopes of the school were riding on him. The whole situation from guidance counselor and classmates became a pressure cooker of expectations. We came from a very competitive area in NVA initially and he was/is way beyond his classmates and everything offered. In either school system he aced algebra, geometry, trig, calculus and does well without trying hard because this is a line a least resistance for him. Math/science is easy, so that alone was a major blow. He just didn't know how he could possibly have missed the questions that he did.
Still, that does not help him on the other side of the equation. He gets good grades in his subject matter, but his vocabulary knowlege is underwhelming. I bought him one of the review books recommended on this forum for vocab already. I think he really doesn't see <em>why</em> he should have to score high in those areas if he is going to focus on hard sciences. I told him that he needs to be well-rounded and that there will be a massive amount of required reading that can be difficult to decipher. He shrugs. I think that he is rebelling against having to work at something he doesn't enjoy.</p>
<p>He isn't set on MIT--but it has a mystique for him at the moment. We're just starting that whole process of thinking about where to go. JHU is close to us. Dad is both a Va Tech alum and GWU alum. We're willing to look around--no problem with that. I don't hold with the headlong drive for the Ivies that I hear about as if someone's future was so closely tied to the name of their school. People graduate at the bottom of their classes at the Ivies too, after all!</p>
<p>In short, I think that this PSAT thing was a wakeup call for him that he was actually going to have to exert himself and couldn't glide through the test situation. Is it even possible to get into college without taking SAT/ACTs?</p>
<p>Threetogo:</p>
<p>Let me add my two cents to this discussion.</p>
<p>For someone strong in math, it is very easy to score low through careless mistakes. That has happened to my own S on SATs. Indeed, he jokes that he likes math better when it involves Greek letters than when it involves numbers-- in other words, he likes abstract math and does not care very much for computation. Perhaps his experience with PSAT will cause your S to be more careful on the SAT.
Regarding the verbal part, keep in mind that the analogies will disappear from the SAT beginning in March. So your S will need to hone his reading and writing skills rather than build up vocabulary., although an extensive vocabulary has never hurt anyone.
In case, however, that he thinks he does not need to have good writing skills, let me recount an experience my S had in the college physics class he is currently taking. After he turned in problem sets that consisted mostly of equations, the TF commented tongue-in-cheek that physics involved <em>some</em> English, after all. My S began to explain his reasoning more fully and has been getting much higher grades. Getting the solution right is only part of the score; the other is providing a clear and full explanation of one's reasoning. In that sense, there is more in common between the writing-heavy disciplines and the hard sciences than some math/science students are wont to believe. And if he does get into MIT, he will find that the HASS (Humanities and Social Sciences) requirements are every bit as demanding in terms of writing, as the general education requirements at liberal arts colleges.
Finally, there are a number of schools that do not require standardized tests. You can look for them at <a href="http://www.fairtest.org%5B/url%5D">www.fairtest.org</a>. I don't know if engineering schools disregard them as they tend to be more stats-driven than many LACs.</p>
<p>About the PSAT, though it gives you an indication of how a student approaches that type of question, it is NOT necessarily an indicator for the SAT1, though with current changes to the SAT1, it may become more of an indicator. As I posted earlier, my son bombed the PSAT, and he does tend to do less well on shorter tests as he always will make a couple of careless mistakes unless the planets are all lined up the right way. My girls who are meticulous and careful tend to do better on the shorter tests if they work on the time factor but a 3 hour SAT just busts their chops. They did so much better on the short SAT2s which they took singularly than on the SAT1, and their PSAT scores were better than any combo of the SAT1 parts even though they sat for that 3 times. If we had started earlier in practicing the SAT1 , I believe it would have made a difference but then we would have cut into other things in their lives that they enjoyed and that we felt were important too. It is possible to hone test taking skills to a high level for the SAT but if the kid is not a "natural" for that test, it takes alot of time that could be better used in life. And this comes from a test tutor--me. Many very brilliant SAT scorers have spent a lifetime taking like tests, and most that I have met deny it initially, it becomes quite clear after they work with me (as though they even need more test prep) that they have a thorough knowledge of the practice tests to the point where they have done the specific problems before.</p>
<p>I suggest that students take a basic, inexpensive "canned" SAT1 course that covers the test taking techniques and tips. They are pretty basic whether you take the course from Kaplan or from your community center. Particurlary valuable are those sessions where you take practice tests under test conditions. If you think about it, paying for the 3 hour stints when you are taking the test is crazy under hefty per dollar fees, it's not as though you are getting more out the session under Kaplan's auspices than if you are sitting in a library taking it. When you correct the test, mark in red marker what you got wrong, and see what areas you have problems. Then spend the big bucks on a very good tutor to hone in on your weak points.</p>
<p>The areas I often see where points are lost are time, carelessness, and lack of skill for a particular question type. All correctable. </p>
<p>It is not worth spending too much time on trying to up that PSAT score, in my opinion. The National Merit Scholarship in my day was considered ever so prestigious and was a great catch as it pretty much paid the tuition of a private school and gave a full ride plus to those going to state schools. The amounts given have not increased, and we all know how tuition has risen. If your student is close to the cut offs for your state when he takes the test sophomore year and you are either seriously considering a college that will greatly subsidize the award or have a company in where they will give a generous award, it may not be the best use of time to try to jack up that score. The student will likely need to work on the SAT1 in the next year or so which is far more important and there is really a point where test prep can become ornerous. Colleges are not interested in your PSAT scores and the top ones do not care about National Merit Designation. I have been told that adcoms actually have made disparaging remarks about the designation, so common it is among their candidates for admission. I say this because my neighbor's son did get top designation by National Merit and she was crushed when the adcom said they get so many NM students that they do not pay attention to the designation. Her son despite the honors there did not get into his top choices last year which really upset her as she was still in the mindset that many of my generation are about the award. I always thought of it as an academic "Holy Grail" of sorts and do not know when it lost its lustre among the most elite schools. High SATs alone (1s and 2s) will trump it every time.</p>
<p>If your student wants to work on the test himself, that is fine. It's just that it so early to start obsessing about the college boards. Being a parent who had kids who were taking them well into the 11th hour, to have started with PSATs would have been one long haul. And the tests are different enough in nature--I call the PSAT a sprint, and the SAT1 a distance event (also multiple SAT2s on the same day). Beter to spend your time and money on the SAT1 and 2s.</p>
<p>Three to go....my daughter's PSAT scores were similar to your son's...high 50's across the board. She is in the top 5% of students in her class, so her scores were disappointing to her. She will take a prep course that will end before the SAT in May. She will also have taken more math, and I think she will be better prepared for this type of test. She'll also be taking a couple of SAT II's at the end of the school year, and two AP exams. Whew.</p>
<p>"As far as the read/write scores--he needs to do better but he hates to read! Spends his time on computer games instead. Plus, he is a slow reader--it takes him a long time to cover a page. I don't know how to help him with that."</p>
<p>My S, who is extremely bright verbally and mathmatically did the same thing. The problem was that he read regular books the same way he'd read a math book: poring over every detail. A couple of sessions with a reading tutor helped him greatly. She taught him how to skim, among other things.</p>
<p>S has a high vocab, high reading comprehension, just was very slow and perfectionistic while reading. </p>
<p>"He is beating himself up for missing questions on stuff he took as a Freshman-easy things he can do in his head. "</p>
<p>That is a wake-up call that he needs to do some serious studying before taking the SA T. The math material on it (and the PSAT) includes things that he did years ago. Taking practice tests under similar conditions to how he'll take the real test also will keep him from making silly mistakes. S took the SAT in Dec., and made the mistake of assuming that the proctor would give a 5 or 10 min. warning when time was running out. For that reason, he didn't bother to time himself using his watch. As a result, time ran out when he was finishing a math section.</p>
<p>While being National Merit can help one get into some schools, I have seen absolutely no indication that National Merit helps with colleges the caliber of MIT. MIT is flooded with National Merit applicants. Probably when it sees students with high SAT scores who are not National Merit winners, the adcoms simply assume that the students had a fluke of a bad day when the PSAT was offered. It's no big deal.</p>
<p>Today, we got the PSAT scores on S. He scored exactly what his older brother did: solidly in the range for commended, but definitely not high enough for National Merit semi finalist.</p>
<p>Older son, who hated school, studied on his own to achieve that score. He figured it a good score would lead to merit aid and he could leave our state, which he hated. Younger son loves school, but is too easy going to study for the PSAT without a tutor.</p>
<p>S also got his SAT results today. His SAT was just 10 points above his older brother's. Older S's PSAT had underpredicted his SAT (probably because he really hit the review books after getting his PSAT results). Younger S's PSAT slightly overpredicted his SAT. Both had SAT scores in the 97th percentile.</p>
<p>I am wondering if younger S would have gotten the same SAT/PSAT results if we hadn't sprung for a tutor! I want my $ back!</p>
<p>My D, a Junior in the International Baccalaureate program in an Arizona public school, just received her PSAT scores: 60 Reading, 66 Math, and 76 Writing, 202 selection index, 96th percentile. She is very disappointed. Grades came out today, too. She got a C in HL Math IB. That's a 2 year pre-calc/calculus honors class. IB requires all classes to be honors all the way through HS. She has never received a C before. She says she is having a lot of trouble with the IB HL math book, although she worked hard at it.</p>
<p>Does a C in one honors class mean that she has absolutely no chance of getting into a school like Boston College or Boston University? Her GPA was a weighted 4.35 before this. Do the SATs mean more? I just want to help her, but I'm at a loss for ideas.</p>
<p>pebbles4562, One C is definitely not going to keep you out of BU. Probably not BC either. With that gpa she will get into BU. I don't understand BC. I have seen many talented kids not get into the school. Maybe, the college counselor at your daughter's high school has experience with these schools and can tell you her educated opinion.</p>
<p>-Also that C may not show up depending on how your school reports grades to colleges. My son would have been sunk had his school shown all quarters, semesters, exams on the transcript sent to the colleges as it was a patchwork quilt of A's, B's, C's and even some D's. He always managed to bring the final grade up to a B or better though he caused a tremendous amount of angst and agony in doing things that way. If necessary, a tutor might be of value. If your D is more accustomed to the traditional style of math, the IB way of doing math can take some adjustment. My older son switched back and forth from the the two different sequences and managed to lose a half year each time he switched. I do believe it hurt the continuity of his math education. </p>
<p>BC and BU would most likely be very interested in someone from Arizona. BC gets deluged with apps from the Northeast and I have seen some pretty top grade apps not make the cut from there. As you move further away from Massachusetts and NY, the odds seem to get better.</p>