I don’t see anybody going quite that far.
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I don’t believe the universe is divided between elite and mediocre. And I’ve pointed out before- U Maine has an outstanding program in Paper Technology. It has a well regarded grad program in US/Canadian history (our largest border neighbor and a relatively understudied relationship). But even its biggest boosters don’t claim that it shares Berkeley’s reputation in 30 or 40 other disciplines. So it’s not mediocre- it’s average? typical? It is the flagship of a state which has large chunks of rural poverty, not a lot of economic OR social diversity, and therefore, fulfilling its mission of providing a college education to its citizens seems like “good enough”-- agree?
Talent is not distributed evenly across the population… and opportunity is not distributed evenly across the population. I think I’m OK with a public higher ed system that can figure out how to give access to a college education for college-ready students without piling them with unrealistic levels of educational debt. For me, that’s enough. I appreciate that not everyone agrees with my POV.
Occasionally, there will be a student of exceptional intellectual capability. One would hope that there are structural systems in place to recognize those kids, even if their own family/community doesn’t see them as exceptional. Whether it’s Questbridge for undergrad, Rhodes and the other fellowships for grad programs— hopefully these young people get identified and supported.
But it is unrealistic to yearn for U Maine to create a state flagship on par with the top tier public U’s. Maine needs schoolteachers and accountants and social workers and I think it’s fine if their flagship U is geared towards educating its own citizens for these jobs. Does that make it mediocre? If the typical HS grad in Maine can afford to attend its flagship U to get a job as a HS Language Arts teacher???
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Why would that mission make them inferior or mediocre? UVA has the same mission. As do the UC schools. No one considers them mediocre.
I think I have stated 10 times that state universities have a different mission and the providing affordable and accessible education is a noble goal. Mediocre universities can accomplish that just fine. It seems .any are hung up on the word mediocre, so we can use “low-ranked” or “basic” or some other word if you prefer.
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I don’t believe so. UMich, GaTech, Berkeley (as examples) are all public schools with the same mission to prioritize educating their in-state students. No knowledgable individual would call these schools mediocre.
(ETA: I see @roycroftmom made the same point while I was typing this up)
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Yet UC Merced has an acceptance rate of nearly 90%. Wasn’t acceptance rate one the ways quality was being judged?
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Post #19 describes how relative size and state population matter in terms of how selective state universities are. Since admission selectivity seems to be a large factor in perception of “elite” or “mediocre”, the state’s population, geography, and sizing of its state universities matters quite a bit.
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Don’t know much about LSU in particular, but some schools are not as rigorous which may be great for certain students, but others that are more serious or interested in in-depth work may not find such a school challenging enough. The overall campus climate could be more oriented to partying than to serious academic challenge. Also, depending on the student’s goal, companies may not recruit as heavily. For some students, that atmosphere may not be welcoming.
That being said, as others have noted, state flagships also attract top students from that state. Kids may have to try harder, but likely can find their people and good opportunities.
But no one has suggested they are “peer universities.” They serve different missions. For most prospective college students, MIT would be among the worst colleges in the country. The “dregs.” A total waste of time and money. Fortunately, MIT would keep them out because MIT is neither equipped nor interested in serving their educational needs.
Serving a extraordinarily narrow range of students may make MIT “elite,” but is also makes it irrelevant as an option to everyone else. Yet we talk and talk and talk about it, as it it matters to 99% of prospective college students.
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The majority of college students attend the local community college, but that is not the purpose or focus of CC
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SDSU alum here from the early 90s too and I could not agree with you more! Most of my SDSU friends ended up being highly successful in their fields although I would say many of them started in sales and ending up starting or running companies. I attribute this to having time to develop social skills in college and learning to making connections. Back in the day, the state schools were known as the places where companies went to hire for sales and marketing and the UCs were known for turning out analysts. There is a college fit for every personality and no college can guarantee success if you don’t have hustle.
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No doubt that many on CC excessively fawn over an extremely narrow range of “elite” colleges, but I am not sure their focus ought to define the “purpose” of CC. And yes, the same posters who run down many state flagships also run down community colleges, but that is really pretty awful as well, and bad advice when some community colleges can provide a terrific option.
The site is not called “Elite College Confidential.”
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I havent seen anyone “run down” community colleges-most here support making them tuition-free and acknowledge the great option they provide for a cost-effective start to a college education as well as access for non-traditional students.
As you are in Cali, @worriedmomucb,maybe you can provide more info on how UCMerced manages to hold on to a top 100 rating? Is it well-funded research? Appealing to prospective faculty? Great support for its majority Hispanic/First Gen student population? Whatever it is doing it seems to work.
Elite privates don’t educate enough poor (or real-not-$250k-middle-class) students. Neither do the top flagships. UVA is much more like a private college in this regard. But a bunch of others are bad too.
Even “mediocre” ones like University of Maine don’t do a great job compared to for example CUNY. U of Maine’s graduation rates for Pell grantees are much lower. So I would still call it a failure.
UCs are a good example of that public mission. UVA, while elite, is not.
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I know absolutely nothing about it, aside from what can be Googled in terms of acceptance rate. Beyond that, I genuinely don’t know what if anything makes UC Merced somehow “superior” to LSU or any other state university. Clearly acceptance rates don’t tell the whole story.
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It does have a very large state population to draw upon, which helps. It continues to rise in ranking.
I don’t “run down” community colleges. But I do find folks on CC somewhat parochial when it comes to things like CC, college financing, etc. The quality of an individual community college varies tremendously; in some states, the pathway to a four year university is clear, and the four year U’s have great success with former CC students.
But not everywhere. So some posters are quick to recommend “Start at a CC” regardless of where a student lives, and regardless of what their long term educational goals are. In some states, that’s fantastic advice. In others, it’s a delaying tactic, because once at a four year U, the student is likely going to repeat much of the coursework in order to get credit. When I tell kids I know IRL that the local CC is not a good option for them, it’s not me “running down” the CC. It’s pointing out that without a car, registering for the right classes which meet at the right time, which will get them an AA in two years so they can move on to a four year U is going to be very, very challenging. For some of these kids, finding an affordable four year U from the git-go is the right solution. Live on campus, take Greyhound home a few times a year, work hard at your Work Study job; you’ve got a great shot at “8 semesters and done” with a manageable level of student debt.
Not every state has the same access, quality, or costs associated with its CC system. That’s aggravating when posters assume others are “running down” CC’s.
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It’s definitely not the focus since most of the people who come here looking for help are not aiming for community college, but I’m not sure it’s not the purpose. Isn’t the purpose to help students move forward in their education in whatever way is most appropriate for them? Not all students are given the same advice. Some really do have a shot at top schools, some don’t and are told to aim lower. Sometimes the “mediocre “ state flagship is the best option and people are told that.
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Well said. Our local CC is awful. They call it Highschool version 2.0.
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There have been threads devoted to whether students starting at community colleges and finishing at schools like UVa and UCB or UCLA are really well educated and whether they should be penalized in the job market for having started in CC. There have been other threads discussing whether starting in CC means that you probably cannot handle certain majors. So it does happen, but it really isn’t on topic here so I’ll leave it at that.