PUBLIC SCHOOL UMich-Ann arbor..24,000 Students?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>Hey guys,</p>

<p>I am curious about Mich-Ann Arbor being a public university. First off, I would like tosay that I would love to attend the university because of its strong undergrad programs and it certainly has distinguished itself having a top 25 ranking on USNEWS. And I know that at UMich, almost any grad school would a dream and amazing academic opportunity for many.
My doubts come in with the number of students and the large atmosphere that can really affect a student's undergrad life. I suppose with a high number of students around 24,000 undergrads, is it really difficult to shine in such an environment? I mean I understand that you will see the polar extremes from the brightest students who turned down Harvard to simple in-state students who luckily got the chance to get in. And I am not trying to make a comparision with a small liberal arts college such as Williams who comprise of maybe 2 thousand undergrads. But over 20,000 to me gives an impression that leans towards drawbacks such as professor:student ratio, outside time with professors, classroom attention, difficulty in individual learning, cutthroat competition with thousands of students who are trying to get into top grad schools, and truly showing that you may not be a significant puzzle piece in the community. I feel that there will be a few really great students, but that most fall in the average pile of students. And by average, I mean thousands and thousands of students. </p>

<p>Once again, I am only speculating these anxieties because of the number of students. I also feel that perhaps resources may be scarce and that it may be a bit isolating that you find a small group of students to meet and hang out with for four years and that you might have missed out on other wonderful professors and students to meet in the school. I just feel that it may limiting to a student's growth, potential, and contribution to the university. </p>

<p>By the way, I am applying to UMICH this fall in September (out of state), and I hope I get in to keep UMich as a wonderful opportunity for an academic career. After having spent several years in boarding school of 600 students and getting the chance to know all the professors and all the students literally, I feel that I may be limited at UMichigan. I mean even for regular universities such as the Ivies (with the exception of Cornell), and other great insitutions, a ugrad enrollment of less than 10,000 seems like a fit to me but at UMich I feel that it may hinder my growth. Can you guys and students fill me in?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

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<p>Alexandre - Cooltej offers a much better-written and more thorough version of the same question I posed earlier in the week. I know you have both depth and breadth of first-hand experience with many campuses; could you offer a comparison of campus environment between UM and a smaller private university, say, Northwestern? Both great academically, but UM is public and has three times as many undergrads, while NWern's student body is more geographically distributed. The "feel" on the campus IMO is more upscale and intellectually "elite" at NWern and more "bohemian" at UM - would you agree? Given your experience with each, how would you compare them?</p>

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<p>A "few" at UM would be about 1500 students per class year. That's the top 25% of the class with great credentials. That's more than the total enrollment of many LAC's.</p>

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<p>There are definitely opportunities to get time with a professor, such as doing research under one (like in the UROP program), but most introductory classes are large and impersonal (which you'll probably find most everywhere). There are discussion sections which take down 100's of people in lecture to classrooms of 20-30 for further questions, help, etc.</p>

<p>As far as shining, it's quite a challenge. With 24,000 people there will be hundreds [minimum, more than likely thousands] who are far better than you in any given field. But if you plan on going on into graduate school later, you'll know that you can't always be the big fish in a small pond and will eventually have to be a guppy in the ocean of life. It's a bit of a humbling experience, especially since there are so many people that graduated high school with the expectation of all A's and being top of their class. Regardless, I highly recommend the University of Michigan because it's the quintessential college experience and will give you a great step towards whichever career you plan to pursue.</p>

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<p>GADAD, I would not worry about the little details. I would look at the big picture. There is no real discernable difference between Michigan and any elite private research university. </p>

<p>1) Yes, Michigan is larger, but when you look at schools like Cornell, Penn, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Columbia, Stanford and Northwestern, that have 15,000-20,000 students walking around campus, you really cannot see the difference. Besides, Michigan's 38,000 undergrads are well spread out of a 3,200 acre campus. The privates I mentioned above (save Stanford) all have campuses smaller than 1,000 acres. In fact, most of the other campuses above have fewer than 500 acres. </p>

<p>2) Classes are larger at Michigan, but again, it is overstated. First of all, professors at major research universities have their own research and fund-raising to worry about as well as assisiting their 3-7 graduate students. So whether you are at Michigan or at Chicago, your profs are going to be busy with so many other commitments, that teaching will not always be a priority. Furthermore, classes at Michigan are not that much larger anyway. Where you would have classes with 100-200 students at Columbia or Penn or Cornell or Northwestern, you would have 200-300 styudents at Michigan. Trust me, whether a class has 150 students or 250 students, you are not going to get the personal attention you seek. The majority of classes at Michigan (75%) have fewer than 30 students...as opposed to fewer than 20 students at the other elite privates. We aren't talking about day and night. Personally, about 70% of the classes I took at Michigan were small (fewer than 25 students) and only had tenured professors teaching me. And even in larger classes, I also managed to see the professors when I needed to and they were helpful and genuinely interested. Finally, there are many (over 1,000 at any point in time) opportunities for undergraduates to work one-on-one with professors on research projects. That is not likely to be found anywhere. </p>

<p>3) Intellectual elitism is not a problem. Michigan students are certainly about learning. Academics are taken very seriously. Walk into any cafe and you will see students studying and discussing academic subjects. Go to any library, and you will see them filled with students. With the exception of the bottom quarter or third of its students, academically, intellectually and potentially speaking, Michigan students are on par with elite private school students (with the exception of CalTech, H,Y,P,S and M), and since Michigan deflates grades more than elite privates, I would say Michigan is every bit as intellectually stimulating and intense as any private elite. </p>

<p>4) Michigan certainly has an upscale feel to it. The campus is extremely well maintained, the buildings are regal, close to 60% of the undergrads come from from houselholds with 6 figure incomes (same as most elite private universities). </p>

<p>5) Geographical distribution is not a real issue either. Michigan's undergraduate students are indeed 65% in-state (Cornell and Stanford are about 50% instate by the way), but 30% of them (8,000 students) are out of state and 5% (1,500 students) are international. I would not be too worried about geographic diversity at Michigan. </p>

<p>Overall, like I said, if you look at the stats, Michigan may seem a little larger, more impersonal and less diverse, but it really isn't.</p>

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<p>About grade deflation, I guess particlarly for pre-med courses, how bad is it? I mean you have one of the finest grad school for medicine and perhaps thousands of pre-meds competiting to get into med school at michigan?</p>

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<p>Grade deflation makes it difficult on students at Michigan who wish to get into Medical and Law school. But Michigan is not unique in that respect. Cornell, Chicago, Cal and Johns Hopkins are all known for being hard-grading schools. If you are willing to work hard, there is no reason why you cannot keep a high GPA. Michigan does not have thousands of pre-med students. Each class has roughly 600-800. Anywhere from 400-600 enroll into medical school each year, 10% of which end up at the University of Michigan Medical School. In short, it is not as difficult as you may think, but Michigan is certainly tougher than many of the elite universities.</p>

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<p>Great input, Alexandre - thanks. BTW, it may be the case that majors outside the School of Literature, Science and the Arts would find a significantly more personal feel. 18,000 of the 24,000 undergrads are LSA majors.</p>

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<p>Gadad....Since your daughter would most likely be studying within the School of Music....
Quoting from the School of Music website...
"...it is important to note that the School of Music is one of the smallest schools or colleges within the university. Our total student body is approximately 1000 and our faculty numbers around 150."
As you and I have discussed, the Music School provides the smaller world within the larger world of the University itself.</p>