Right, and I agree in principle that if this is what Quebecers want, then this is what they should get. But the way the voting districts are arranged in Quebec means that you do not need Montreal to win. The CAQ got 37% of the vote but 74% of the seats in the province and only ONE in Montreal. The CAQ is willing to throw Montreal under the bus to appeal to nationalists in the “regions” (rural areas) since every rural vote counts more than any city vote.
Legault ran on a platform to reform the voting system to provide proportional representation, but when his modest success delivered him total control of the assembly, he changed his tune to “no system is perfect”. The effect of this system is that Montrealers who constitute 25% of the provincial population (50% if you count the metropolitan area) can massively disagree with this proposal (every university, French and English, came out against the proposal) but if the Quebecers who do not live in Montreal are prepared to sacrifice Montreal, then Montrealers’ votes – which provide most of the tax base in the province – don’t matter.
Wow this sure does remind me of, umm, another situation in which they didn’t really want to achieve the nuclear option and in which they were appealing to the rural masses by stoking and playing to cultural issues and in which lots of people said no it could never happen.
They already charge out of province students more. That’s not the issue. The issue is how much they’re increasing it and the reason why. Currently out-of-province students pay around $8,000 vs $3,000 for in-province but Quebec wants to raise the fee to $17,000 which is almost comparable to international student rates (unless you come from France/Belgium/former French African colonies who pay the same as in-province students). Very few universities outside of Quebec even charge out-of-province rates. Dalhousie in Nova Scotia does ($10,000 OOP vs $8,700 IP) as most likely do the other universities in Nova Scotia, I believe Newfoundland just added an out-of-province premium (not sure how much but not a lot), and Ontario just started doing so this year as well (~$6,600 OOP vs $$6,100 IP), but nowhere at the rates that Quebec is proposing. Only time will tell how all this will shake out. Quebec claims that it will not affect out-of-province enrolment but of course they’re being disingenuous since that’s exactly what they are intending to happen. From the perspective of McGill at least they can probably make up the deficit of fewer out-of-province matriculants by admitting more international students. Concordia and Bishops will have less leeway to do the same.
The other thing that the government is trying to do is to make it harder for Quebec students to be able to study at the English language CGEPS.
Actually Premier Legault has stated that he wants fewer out of province students at McGill and Concordia. The Minister of Education has stated that there are too many students “expressing themselves in English” on downtown streets.
One commentator suggested that a logical extension of the tuition policy would be that if a tourist is not able to register at a hotel in French then the room rate would be doubled; if they are not able to order a meal in French at a restaurant then the price of the meal would be doubled.
I was just pointing out that here in the US, out of state students pay a lot more and their tuition is the same as for international students. As for the policy and its implications, I am not competent enough to judge as I do not know Canadian education very well.
The current CAQ government has the mantra that “French is in decline in Quebec, especially in Montreal”, without any proof. They have based all their restrictions on English on this made-up fact. Apparently, they have convinced a portion of the voters that it is true.
According to Québécois friends, bilingualism has increased a lot. Older people were a lot more likely to know only French. Sometimes nationalists dread bilingualism more.
I have to wonder if there would be any pushback for students from Quebec at Canadian universities outside of Quebec. There are of course plenty of Canadians from Quebec who attend university in other provinces. Most probably go to English language universities. However, the University of Ottawa (which is bilingual) at least when I looked (a few years back) gave a significant tuition break for bilingual students, and some of these are probably from Quebec (including from Hull and Gatineau). Also, there are some decent small French language universities in Canada outside of Quebec (Universite de Moncton comes to mind, partly because one daughter took an intensive French immersion course there that was quite good).
They are basing these measures on the unremarkable finding that the proportion of people who speak predominantly/only French at home has declined from 79% to 77.5% in the last 5 years. This is driven by two things: an increase in immigration, which is needed to deal with the fact that the birthrate among native Quebecers has plummeted, and an increase in the number of international students that the universities bring in to balance their budgets since the provincial government underfunds universities. Quebec can’t hit its immigration targets by bringing people who only speak French so only 54% of recent immigrants speak only French (another 15% speak French and English). Similarly, the universities can’t hit their budget targets by relying on provincial government-regulated Quebec and Canadian tuition, so they are bringing in more international students whom they can charge more. Neither of these problems has anything to do with Canadian students from out of province who have remained steady at 20% of the McGill population. But the government is making them the scapegoat in a move that shores up their support with Quebec nationalists by targeting English institutions.
La Presse reported last night that Legault is ready to propose a 33% increase rather than 100%. I have heard that many Ontario schools are excited, for instance the fine arts program at York, because many students leave for QC, (and the fine arts program at Concordia is one of the country’s best) so I don’t know if there will be a reactionary increase. there as many students who leave the province as those who come. So if the R.O.C. did a similar reactionary increase it would mean more kids staying in their home province that Quebec would have to subsidize, and they would get fewer out of province students.
Saw the same thing about a potential 33% increase instead in exchange for beefing up “francization” at the universities. English universities had offered to make French courses mandatory and 40% to graduate with intermediate level French (B2). Sounds like that target is too low for government happiness; they want more in exchange for reducing the increase. We’ll see.
I really don’t see other provinces doing that. What I think will happen is that the percentage of students from Quebec leaving the province for university will stay the same and the percentage of students from the R.O.C. studying in Quebec will plummet. As a result total revenues will fall unless shored up by additional international students (the majority who will most likely also be Anglophone which would do nothing to address the issue of “too many students expressing themselves in English on the streets in Montreal”), or by admitting more in-province students (with the net effect being a decrease in selectivity for most Quebec universities whether English or French, and potentially increasing the proportion of Quebec students doing their university studies in English).
S19 is currently in the midst of submitting applications for grad school. McGill is on the list and while his COA would not be impacted, if these new proposed measures get passed, I have to wonder what effects it may have on the broader university as a whole. It’s rather disappointing to be honest as I think living in Montreal for a few years would be a fantastic experience for him (given that I was hoping he would apply outside of the country but he has chosen not to at this point) though either way McGill is not his top choice.
Just a note: B2 is “Advanced” on the US scale - it’s the level required for teachers or grad programs. B1 is intermediate in the US system roughly AP level.
B2 implies roughly 7 to 8 years of learning including HS and college, with excellence during all of these. Most people never manage it even with the accumulated classes, unless they are gifted, dedicate a lot of time, and/or live in the language for some time. 40% B2 is a lofty goal.
(There’s an even higher level for professionals or majors who’ve taken many high level classes and lived a year abroad, called C1. It requires a thorough understanding in countries’history including art history, implicit references, anthropological&sociological knowledge, country-specific interpersonal communication skills, ability to follow politics or debates and explain them to the American public, etc.)
It’s a good point that there are between-country differences for standards of fluency. B2 corresponds to an ability to function at work in that language, i.e. speak to French speakers in a predictable work context, have spontaneous conversations, read memos etc. This is not a level that would be achievable by people coming as undergrads without having studied French in high school. However, 50% of McGill students are from Quebec and most of these already have B2+ level fluency because they are francophones, or immigrants who have spent their entire lives in a French school system or they are Quebec anglophones who are educated in English but take French throughout elementary and high school and have to take 5 French courses in junior college before university. This is likely why the government thinks a 40% target is too low.
Mandatory university French courses, if they happen, would ideally apply to people not able to pass a B2-level French exam at entry, and the goal would be to get some of these to the B2 level. I imagine the only ones for whom this is a reasonable possibility are those coming from other Canadian provinces who have taken French throughout high school. (Many cities in Canada offer French immersion grade schools and high schools, and all high schools offer 4 years of French). However, people interested in science are likely not taking anything beyond the minimum high school credits in French so it would limit recruitment as those people may not want to devote university credits to French. Nonetheless, for the people who do have a French high school background, working on their French while at McGill could allow them to stay in Montreal and work.
Anecdotal evidence, I had an anglophone student in my lab who came from Toronto with only high school French courses but had ambitions to work in Quebec. She passed the government professional French exam by studying and by enrolling in off-campus ballroom dancing classes with francophones while at McGill. It’s do-able for the motivated.
Yes, B2 is achievable for anglophone university-going Quebecers and I sure hope the francophones would pass their French proficiency exam in Cegep --and since McGill requires such a high “R Rating” for admission, all students are excellent and couldn’t afford 65s in French. Also, 50% students from France end up at McGill in order to become bilingual so their numbers would be added.
60% is impressive but it makes sense.
The regular non Quebecer taking French through grade 11, on the other hand, as well as Americans and other internationals, would likely find this standard really hard to achieve at entrance or even at graduation - not sure about Concordia and Bishop’s.
I took that figure to apply to out of province/international students, but I may be mistaken.
I have always been surprised that McGill had no requirement for OOP/international students to take at least a basic course in French. Or even a required course on Quebec and Montreal, even if offered in English. Quebec is such a unique place (or should I say a distinct society) that students from outside should learn about it.
My older son is an American alumnus of McGill. He studied 4 years of French in high school with AP score 5, SAT II 780. With AP credits he took as many French language courses as possible and one French literature course while at McGill. He had a francophone girlfriend who later became his wife. It enabled him to get his first job with a French bank in New York and later worked three years at their headquarters in Paris. Oddly in Paris he worked mostly in English. He is fluent in French and although they live in suburban Boston now, they are raising three fluently bilingual children. It can be done but one must be motivated to do it.