Question: NCAA Div. 1/Ivy League/Track: Help!!!

Parents Forum
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Regardless of why a specific institution chooses to comply with Title IX in one way or another, it is in fact because of Title IX and required compliance. So yes, if there was no T9, then they would probably not have roster limits, and therefore you can blame T9.

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<p>Do you really want to make that argument? Women are to blame for less opportunities for men. It's not inflated football teams or colleges' determination, in spite of all reason, to come into compliance with prong 1 (as if that was the only one that counts) no it's the women's fault. You don't really mean that?</p>

<p>Let's take your point a step further. If there was no Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, colleges that receive Federal financial assistance wouldn't have to admit African-Americans. Because A-As are now competing for spots, fewer whites get in. So what you are saying is Blacks are to blame for lessening white opportunities because whites discriminated against Blacks? </p>

<p>Should we go back to keeping Jews out of elite institutions so there's more room for Christians? You really don't mean that? </p>

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I am not sure how these schools would offer more opportunities for women, in many cases their women's sports rosters are so small they can barely field a team, not because of limits but due to lack of interest.

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<p>Colleges do not have to create sports for women if there is no interest or ability for women to compete in those sports or there is no likelihood of competition in the college's normal competitive area. If they can show that there is no interest or ability they have met prong 3 and are therefore, in compliance with Title IX.</p>

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<p>mam1959 - may I join Alumother in saying how compelling I find your posts? This topic has nothing to do with me or mine, personally; but I feel I have learned a tremendous amount from your cogent comments on the D1 scholarship athlete's situation. I'm sure that others may have had different experiences or perspectives. But that does nothing to take away from your perspective and reading it can benefit many who might aspire to the D1 scholarship world and not realize that there are costs as well as benefits.</p>

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<p>A great book about college cross country and the toll that it takes on it's althetes is "Running with the Buffalos" by Chris Lear. He also wrote a book about Alan Webb called "Sub 4:00: Alan Webb and the Quest for the Fastest Mile".</p>

<p>mam1959, I also wanted to say that I find your perpective very informative. My S's XC coach also ran in D-1 and her experience is very similar to yours. My H swam D-3 and his experience was completely different. He is a big proponent of participating in athletics on the university level and would love it if our S decides to run in college.</p>

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<p>barrons - don't mean to be argumentative, but I know Alan Webb well and know why he left Michigan. He lives but 5 miles from my residence. His coach coaches my daughter's high school team, and since there are so few runners from high school with sub 4:05 mile times and understand the attendant challenges and pressures, we have a common thread of experience. He left of course because he felt he was not going to progress at Michigan, but his issues were not specific to Michigan - the problems he had at Michigan (a great program right up there with Wisconsin) were endemic to Div. 1 athletics - too many balls in the air to manage and not enough time or energy to do the running thing properly, or the school thing properly, either. And I think the stress led to his injury while there. Again, the point I have been making. By the way, my 12th grade daughter is a very good runner - but note that she is very happily going to one of the highly ranked schools on this Board on an academic scholarship that pays most of the freight (including room and board), even though Dad offered to pay anywhere for her and encouraged her to carefully scope out what was what on the track recruiting visits. She would second every thing I say here. Would I have been as mature at her age as she is now. </p>

<p>I consistently find myself in a weird place. I like sports as much as anyone - I really do - and I greatly benefited from sports. But I am really bothered by the over-emphasis on athletics at the college level, particularly at Division 1. Athletics are so corrupting - really, without understatement. Millions are spent (with 90% of the schools losing money), lackluster students are often catered to, and in some cases, entire majors exist just for athletes (recreation and family living come to mind). I just can't imagine being a major University President - every academic instinct (and concern for the average student) would have me wanting to de-emphasize sports to be far more consistent with the university's mission - knowing that if I did so I would be threatened to be fired (or fired) and many alumni would look at me like I had two heads. It is with this in mind that I warn parents to be careful of the Divison 1 athletic beast. </p>

<p>And as a final note, to parents of athletes, I really do suggest Chris Lear's book Running with the Buffaloes (in addition to his book on Webb) if you want any idea of what running or other minor sports are like at the top collegiate level. It is about the University of Colorado XC team, another perennial star team. And keep in mind that when it is read that Coach Wetmore is one of the better citizens in the college track world - an upstanding guy if there ever was one. But even then, read it and query what kind of life a student has in that program aside from running and a hurried, learn how to cut the corners academic life. Again, it makes me wonder whether some of the Div. 1 sharks wouldn't be better, and more importantly, happier, at Div. III (where they are talented enough to win championships with a more sane approach,and time spent on school isn't a luxury).</p>

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<p>In response to the kind posts, I say thanks. And I don't want to discourage anyone with mega brains and athletic talent from trying to accomplish great things in academics and athletics. And I hope I am speaking from reality and not my disappointments. But running isn't like gymanastics. If you are 21-22, competitive at the Div. III level, and with Div. 1 like talent, your career can just be starting, if indeed that is what you want to do. As I said, this was the case with Frank Shorter (as well as Bill Rodgers). But the most important thing is to prepare for life - and college is the place and time to do that above all else.</p>

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<p>Well, we can agree to disagree but there were many "insider" posts on the UM sports boards with another take. Perhaps hated was too strong. Did not see eye to eye with would be better. Also the following quote does not sound like a happy parting from the UM Daily</p>

<p>"But Warhurst wishes Webb the best and is confident the program will go on without him.</p>

<p>"The program was here and established at the University because of academics and athletics long before Alan Webb," Warhurst said. "He was here, he made his splash and now he is gone. In a few years, I don't think there will be anybody talking about him."</p>

<p>And from a track columnist</p>

<p>"In two years, Webb went from being the next big thing to the latest big flop. A contentious year spent at the University of Michigan followed by a disappointing first season as a pro.</p>

<p>There were people questioning his training, his decisions, his heart. People contemplating if he was a one-run wonder. And Webb was among them.</p>

<p>"Those thoughts crossed my mind," Webb said. "Maybe I was a fluke."</p>

<p>It didn't happen all at once. Webb seemed to make a smart, measured decision to go to Ann Arbor. And the relationship flourished initially.</p>

<p>But, by season's end, his times had not progressed. There was talk he was unhappy with the training program and was setting his own schedule.</p>

<p>One year after arriving at Michigan, Webb left.</p>

<p>"It was really hard for me, when I was at Michigan, to not be making progress," Webb said. "It was the first time in my career, in my life, that I had not run a (personal record) in the mile. That was pretty much a big red flag for me. Ever since running the mile in fourth grade in gym class, I had improved every year."</p>

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<p>A good book on female runners featuring one of my favorites--the bright and beautiful Stephanie Herbst--should be in most larger stores. For some reason Wisconsin had some particulary attractive and talented runners in the 80's. Must be that midwestern stock.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.runningtimes.com/rt/articles/?id=7119&c=73%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.runningtimes.com/rt/articles/?id=7119&c=73&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>mam1959,
thanks for sharing.</p>

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<p>TS,</p>

<p>I did not say Title 9 was wrong, or for that matter right, anywhere. I simply stated facts, attempting to be void of any opinion. You can have your opinion until the cows come home, the fact is that Title 9 drastically changed the landscape of college sports. I did not say for the worse, or for the better. That's a fact. A fact is that there are significantly less than half the college wrestling programs now than there were 30 years ago, and while to not the same degree, there has been an impact in several other "minor" sports. Almost exclusively it is a result of the schools compliance with T9. Whether or not it would have been "better" to comply with it some other way, it's moot, because the facts are that is what many, if not most, have done. If you want to debate whether or not T9 is for the better, start a thread and have a blast. Please refrain from dragging me, African American and Jewish people into it. If you are not already a DC spin doctor, perhaps you should think about changing careers. Your took a very sane discussion and turned it into a soapbox not in line with the OP in 2 posts, extrapolating to the nth degree.</p>

<p>I will second the rest of the track posters experiences, every D1 wrestling coach I've met has basically let it be known he will own you just about every minute of the day. Know it going in.</p>

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<p>So what do you think of Aislinn Ryan's choosing Colorado over Duke?</p>

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<p>mam- Thanks from me, too. My son will be running for Penn next year.<br>
Alu- my son was contacted by some coaches but he made contact with most of them. He wanted a top academic school where he could still run for a good program. His high school coach helped him, too, by contacting coaches at colleges where he thought my son would be a good fit and where the high school was known for producting good scholar-athletes who were successful on all fronts at college. It is tough to find the right academic AND athletic fit. My son's high school sent an athlete to Columbia last year (the kid chose it over Lehigh and some other smaller schools) and it didn't work out. The whole environment was too much for the kid (a small town, homebody) and he went AWOL from Columbia this spring. It was very frightening.</p>

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<p>mam- I love Chris Lear's books. Also, you are right about Webb and Michigan. It was much, much more than the coach. Another gifted high schooler, Steve Magness, left his college (Rice) after sophomore year to train on his own this year.</p>

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<p>MOWC - I was hoping you'd show up here:). This girl may be looking at the Ivies when her time comes. (And she's really nice too....) Oh, and good luck to your S! I knew he was going to Penn, but here are some special good wishes.</p>

<p>I've given my friend all this info. Thank you all again and as the OP I really don't mind if the thread has its detours....It is only my friend's Ds second year of running/jumping. She's not top 10 in CA, or even top 20 right now, but for a sophomore she is high up. The goal will be to pick the kind of college she likes, and then see if the coach is interested. And to make sure she continues to love to run and stays healthy:).</p>

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<p>LOL on the special majors: take a look at how many "Criminal Justice" majors there are on top F'ball and B'ball teams.</p>

<p>BIG AGREE with Mam on the general rigor of a D1 athletic program, & a BIG endorsement of D3, for all of you whose kids do not aspire to become professionals in their sport.</p>

<p>My D HS is very strong in sports, and we see kids getting D1 scholarships routinely. We have kids now in Big 10, Pac 10, Ivy... lots of D1 programs. Zillions of D3 kids too.</p>

<p>One extremely smart kid (top of class, like a 5.0 and 1550) went to Stanford as a recruit and was quite unhappy at how 'outside' the regular flow of University life one is as an athlete. For example, if you practice from 1-5 pm, you can forget all the classes offered during those times. The teams travel and play year-round; you are flying around the country. Extremely demanding pace with very little breathing room for other interests, academics, or relaxing.</p>

<p>Another kid from D's HS is at a big 10 program, working just as hard on his sport. He, however, likes it; his quote to his mother was "Mom, it's my job." It is okay with him to work this hard on sports because this is his genuine passion (he never was outstanding as a student.)</p>

<p>Ivy sports are also quite intense (though not as intense as say Stanford). My friends who played sports at Brown seemed to be well integrated into the life of the campus... and in a couple of cases they went on to pro sports afterwards.</p>

<p>My D and her other D3 pals seem to have good balance in their lives. In the season, they work very hard and travel all the time. But if your Chem lab meets until 4 and practice starts at 3:30, you are supposed to go to chem lab. During the off season, you are not required to do anything in the way of practice or working out (though most of them do for general finess and fun). You can easily do a play, a musical group, an intermural, a job.</p>

<p>It is nice to have time off to have a 'regular' college life, which is harder and harder the higher you go up the D1 ladder.</p>

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<p>alumother,
thanks for starting the thread. it's been interesting to follow. d has a former teammate who is running track/cc at a Big 12 school. i have a relative who ran track/cc at a small d1 program. she enjoyed the experience and received a good education but has mentioned she had a chance to do track/cc at emory. she feels now that emory would have been a good choice.......but at the time, she wanted to run d1 so chose the d1 school. </p>

<p>i've read that the ivies and the top d3's tend to recruit the same athletes. think you can likely add in the patriot league as well and perhaps maybe the colonial and mac leagues. does anyone happen to know?</p>

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<p>The Ivies are a clear notch up from the top D3s. Perhaps certain athletes, or the national top 10 D3 schools in certain sports, can get pretty close to lower Ivy level, but in general it is a clear step up.</p>

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<p>thanks sbmom.</p>

<p>thought of a question on ncaa and ivies...............let's say ncaa basketball...........do they send only one team to the ncaa tournament..........only their league champion? what about in other sports..........what's the selection process for the individuals or teams to advance in ncaa post season competition?</p>

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<p>condor - if a basketball athlete wants to be in NCAA tourney play, they sure as heck don't have a good chance to do it if they play for the Ivy League. Of the 64 teams in the Div. 1 tourney, only one bid a year (there may be an exceptional year or two, but I do not think so) comes from the Ivy League, and it is exceedingly rare that the Ivy League team gets beyond Round 1. </p>

<p>At other conferences (Pac-10, Big 10, Big 12, SEC, ACC, etc.) four to eight teams get selected each year for the tourney, with many of them going deep in the tourney. But at that Division 1 level, only a handful of players - typically the top 100 or top 150 high school players each year, can make the team. And most of them (although there are exceptions) are not student athletes in any sense of the word (as people would define it on this board). And to play at a Duke, Kentucky, North Carolina or Connecticut - well, that's an experience for top 25 high school players (mostly) - the 6"5 players that can play point guard - really extreme in terms of talent. </p>

<p>Div. II and III qualify regionally to a field of 64 so if a b-ball player gets in a well known program chances of playing in an NCAA tourney are much higher than with an Ivy - but Div. II and III b-ball (although a great sport to watch) is a much different affair than big time basketball in Div. 1. That, to my mind, is a good thing, unless a kid is one of the handful of players that can make it to the pros. The vast majority of players should focus first on their education - something that to my mind does not happen often enough.</p>

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<p>re the patriot league - they do recruit the same kind of athletes as the Ivy league. And every once in a while, either the Ivies or the Patriot recruits a dominating athlete that surprises. But that is rare, since there is a more proper focus on school. Army and Navy are in it too - those kids belong in a rare category in terms of stress and lifestyle. </p>

<p>My daughter's high school teammate went to American (could have gone anywhere) - a right choice for her academically, socially and athletically. She was 6th in the nation this year - one of those rare stars from a smaller school. Matt Centrowitz, the coach, is a former American record holder and knows his stuff, too. I doubt she would have done well at a powerhouse - they would have, as they have done with so many athletes, run her into the ground. She manages a 3 sport activity so well because: 1) she does not have to peak for her conference meet and wins it easily, and can comfortably train through it, thus keeping her periods of maniacal intensity short; 2) she can take easy days much easier without rabid teammates pushing her to run too hard (a real problem at the big schools); 3) the school is never going to be a track powerhouse (although they have a good program) so they don't double and triple her for points and burn her out in the process, and, 4) at the end of each season, peaks where the competition is great at nationals and her times can vastly and "naturally" improve. A wise choice she has made...</p>

<p>This is of course a bit of fantasy, but I am totally convinced I would have been better at a Div. III school (I ran better on moderate mileage anyway - having plenty of sprint speed but no love of ridiculously long distances), for the same reasons I mention above. And more important, I, rather than an athletic department, would have been far more in control of my life. And my academics would have been better. Not necessarily in terms of grades because I did well but I would have taken much harder subjects rather than the corner cutters I did take. And in that sense, I would have been better educated. No regrets - I am lucky - but I wish I knew then what I know now.</p>

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<p>mam1959,</p>

<p>thanks for the post. i thought i remembered being told that about the ivy league and the ncaa tournament but thought i'd double check. knew someone on here would know the scoop:) your comments are appreciated. there are posters here on cc with kids who are or will be in collegiate sports. might even be what brings some posters initially to the cc board. i found cc because i was seeking out info. on national merit. others may have similar stories........ be it sports, band, recruiting, etc.</p>

<p>sounds like you still enjoy following the sport. we have a friend running in the big 12 now. travels all over.</p>