<p>My question holds true for you as well:</p>
<p>Would you feel better if someone got in because her family REALLY had money, or because she was only sortta Hispanic? (especially since that is so much more common)</p>
<p>Mini: To answer your question. I find that the only way to view the college admissions game is to stay away from value judgements altogether and just accept it. As Bill Belichick, the Wesleyan grad, likes to say, "it is what it is....they tell us the rules and we go out and play."</p>
<p>Thanks for clarifying YOUR post Northstarmom. I now understand what you meant. Sorry if I sounded a little upset.</p>
<p>I wonder if it would be good for colleges to give students more room for clarification. So many students are multicultural, and it's hard to clarify their heritage with a checkmark and a little blank for country of origin. I know biracial students who feel like they must "choose one," and thus deny a part of their heritage. Perhaps we should give students more room in order to avoid such conflicts. Technically, yes, my friend is Hispanic, but she is largely white. Yet, it's the fault of the common application for forcing students to pick one race by giving them only a two-inch blank for "other" in which you can't clarify "25% Hispanic, 50% White, 25% Asian, etc..."</p>
<p>My husband is from Spain and was a Spanish citizen up until about 4 years ago. My kids were born here but have dual citizenship. Are they "Hispanic"?</p>
<p>I first encountered the dilemma when oldest S took the PSAT. I read on the collegeboard.com website about the National Hispanic Recognition Program, which states in part - </p>
<p>."...The College Board's National Hispanic Recognition Program was initiated in 1983 to identify outstanding Hispanic high school students and to share information about these academically well-prepared students with subscribing colleges and universities. In order to be eligible, students must be at least one-quarter Hispanic...</p>
<p>...Qualification for recognition is based on the student's combined verbal, math, and writing skill scores on the PSAT/NMSQT taken in the student's junior year of high school. PSAT score cut-offs vary each year by state. Students must also self-identify themselves as Hispanic on the PSAT/NMSQT. A minimum grade point average is established for the program and academic information is requested directly from the high schools -- i.e., grade-point-average.</p>
<p>To qualify for this program, the student must be at least one-quarter Hispanic, according to the following definition: A person of Mexican-American, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Central or South American, or other Spanish cultures or origins. For purposes of this program, this does not include persons from Brazil or Portuguese culture/origin, nor persons from the Philippines. Hispanic is an ethnic category not a racial category and Hispanics may be of any race."</p>
<p>Since reading that, I have seen different definitions of Hispanic, some that include Spain, others that don't. S never applied for any program or scholarship for which he didn't meet the requirements of "Hispanic". I think that colleges need to be very specific about what Hispanic means if they are going to give weight to it on an application.</p>
<p>Wow, this is an enlightening thread. My daughter,who is adopted, asked me if she could check Hispanic on her applications next year since one of her birthparents is Hispanic. I told her I believed she didn't qualify because I thought the purpose of the characterization was to identify ethnic diversity and/or disadvantaged minorities and that since she was adopted at birth and has grown up in an upper middle class caucasian family she didn't qualify. She pointed out she goes to an ethnically diverse high school and that many of her friends are hispanic (and range from kids who've never been on an airplane to kids whose families own private jets) and she does identify with hispanic culture. Looks like she may have a broader (and better) view than I do.</p>
<p>I think the adopted child has a right to put down hispanic</p>
<p>however, what I against is "country club" type white people who lie on their application and put hispanic down when they are not. I personally know of one such person who got into a HYP school early</p>
<p>You guys really need to read "The Gatekeepers". Especially the story of the talented young lady from Los Angeles -- the daughther of a South American lawyer (with Brazilian and black ancestry) and a white Oberlin-grad mother. This girl went to best prep school in Los Angeles and was no more "disadvantaged" than the Bush twins.</p>
<p>Because she was a URM, the schools recruited her from the 9th grade on, the degree to which they wined and dined her was embarrassing, if not nauseating. For example, when Stanford flew in her, they scheduled her to sit in on a class attended by Chelsea Clinton (who proceded to tell her to go to Yale!).</p>
<p>I'm not saying that the colleges aren't interested in diversity. They are. But, they really don't care what color your skin is or where your father was born as much as they mostly interested in the box you check and your contribution to the racial percentages they supply to US NEWS. </p>
<p>I am philosophically opposed to even asking about race and ethnicity on the app. As a practical matter, I advised my daughter to not check any box. I asked her a simple question, "Do you think that checking that "White" box will help you get accepted?" If not, why check it? IMO, every voluntary spec of ink that goes on a college app should further the chances of acceptance or it shouldn't go on the app.</p>
<p>Conversely, I think any applicant who can legitimately check a box that may help them with admissions (black, Hispanic, Native American) needs to ask themselves the same question. If somebody wants to stand on principle and not check that box, I think that's terrific. But, it's also dumb from a gamesmanship standpoint.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think that colleges need to be very specific about what Hispanic means if they are going to give weight to it on an application.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They can't be more specific. It is a voluntary, self-described affiliation. Read the exact wording of the question on the Common App.</p>
<p>Even asking the question in the first place is walking a Constitutional tight rope. The first college that demands "proof" of racial or ethnic ancestry or provides litmus test guidelines for specific percentages in the blood line will be sued up one side of the Ivory Tower and down the other.</p>
<p>Yeah about the adoption issue a mother told her own daughter not to put down Hispanic. As for me, my parents always seemed to give me the idea that I was Hispanic. Unfortunately whenever anything good happened involving college I always wondered is it because I'm Hispanic or is it because I'm qualified. That is always the question that one must ask his/herself. U of I accepted me quick and was quick to offer a lot of things and I wondered that myself. But when I applied to the Campus Honors Program there is no box for race. You either deserve it or you don't. When I got in it was the greatest feeling ever b/c I knew that I got in based off of pure merit.</p>
<p>Maybe now you're wondering why I checked Hispanic if I always had that question. That question was partially me and partially my racist white friends in my hick town but also because I truly believe I'm Hispanic. I would like to think my birth mother would be ashamed if I checked anything else. So to the mom whose has an adopted daughter. Don't tell your daughter who she is. Let her think for herself.</p>
<p>ya know it may just be me, but I don't think it really matters that much what race/ethnic group you put down.
any one thing on it's own is not going to make that much of a difference in admissions.
My daughter is first generation college- yes it was noted, but that was all, it didn't make or break the rest of her application
Now if she had been child of major donor that would have been different ;)</p>
<p>Unless you read her application, you have no idea what she listed as her race / ethnic origin.
Mind your own business.
Even if she did list what you think is "incorrect", there are so many factors that go into college admissions that the Adcoms will look at the whole package and come to an appropriate decision.</p>
<p>That was exceptionally rude. </p>
<p>I repeat I AM NOT GETTING INVOLVED IN THIS SCENARIO. I was just curious if it was ethical of her put this and ethical of my friend to do something about it. </p>
<p>And yes, I do know what she listed as her race because she told me.</p>
<p>I obviously know so many factors go into applications and IN NO WAY think students are admitted because of their race.</p>
<p>And frankly, I have no respect for anyone who uses the phrase MYOB. Very mature. I'm assuming you're not a parent, and if you are, I think you need to take a second look at how you treat teenagers who are curious about morality and ethics, which I think is a good thing.</p>
<p>I want everyone to know that I meant nothing bad by posting this thread. I was just curious what parents thought about the ethics of students from multicultural backgrounds putting down the ethnicity they do not largely associate with. </p>
<p>However, as a long-time CC participant, I've discovered that this website isn't always a good place for open, interesting debate. Instead it's a place for people to tell others insulting things "like mind your own business." (Northstarmom, this has nothing to do with our dispute - I kno you are a CC veteran and are very involved with Harvard and I highly respect you. I know you've really helped out a lot of students and parents, including me.) I therefore am no longer going to choose to participate in posting on a site that doesn't foster the open dialogue I was hoping for.</p>
<p>Forgive the typo on know. </p>
<p>Sorry if I seemed so bitter. I just don't appreciate being insulted by people who don't even know me. That is a phrase I take great offense to, so I was shocked I received it on the parents forum. Thanks to all of the parents who made interesting replies.</p>
<p>No insult was intended.</p>
<p>Short cuts in IM's and other electronic communication can be taken in a way the writer, in this case me, didn't intend.</p>
<p>I appreciate your looking for guidance on this ethical question.</p>
<p>Sorry in turn then if I seemed overly upset. Yes, I did take that wrong because that's one of those things like "shut up" I got in trouble for saying as a kid. So I just don't like that phrase. Thank you for apologizing. </p>
<p>However, I still think I'm avoiding CC posting. Too much drama! I thought this might make an interesting post, but instead it made me trouble. (I say this jokingly.) Thanks again.</p>
<p>Dear Jellybean--You asked a very good question and a lot of people followed up with answers and more questions. Some of them were jerks. Most of them were not. The right answer in your case seemed to be "drop this dishonest twit as a friend and forget about it." Here's another ethical question for you/us to think about: </p>
<p>My D's friend applied for summer research NSF fellowships designed for minority women 18 and over. She is not herself a minority, and she is not yet 18. She is obtaining false ID to solve the birthday problem (you have to be 18 to work in the labs). She is hoping no one will challenge her assertion that she is part African-American. Due to her excellent freshman year grades and recommendations from her chem/math teachers, she has a good chance of winning a fellowship. </p>
<p>My D quietly dropped this girl from her circle of friends when she found out But here's the question: should she drop the dime on the liar? If the girl wins a fellowship, she's actually stealing it from someone else. Federal funds were set aside to encourage minority women to get into science. This is not a victimless crime. Yet no one likes a squealer. </p>
<p>At what point do we go from concerned citizen to tattletale? How much needs to be at stake, and for whom?</p>
<p>The school the student is attending now must know the students real age. They would have to go along with the deception.
Using the false ID is a serious violation of the Law.
The student is setting themselves up for having to continue to lie about their age if they list their internship on future transcripts and EC lists.
The continued lies will show a serious lack of ethical behavior on the part of the student, when/if it is cited on resumes.</p>
<p>Besides; it's an easy lie to uncover.</p>
<p>If they are getting paid, their DOB, SS# and Name, address etc. Will be recorded on an I-9 and they information will be reported to the State Labor Department.
At some point they will report back that the DOB is incorrect.</p>
<p>Misrepresenting their race or ethnic background will also be discovered if the student does get the internship. </p>
<p>If you care about the person and wish to save them from their potential mistake, you could point out some of these problems to them. </p>
<p>Also the School that is writing the recomendations should be assuring the the applicant meets the requirements for the internship.</p>
<p>A foundation of lies is not the base to build a life on.</p>
<p>Jellybean- It sounds like you're talking about something you shouldn't be involved in. You say your friend's grandfather is Spanish. Does that not make your friend at least 25% hispanic? How do you know that your friend has not put Hispanic on anything before? Have you asked? Also, if you're so concerned with ethics, why are you going behind your so-called friend's back and telling another about what your friend put on an application? Does your friend know about this? If not, do you think she would appreciate you going behind her back to get another person involved? I believe you need to seriously reconsider the things you post about your friend before starting threads about her race. This is ridiculous. If she called Harvard and Harvard did not have a problem with it, then what's the argument about? Also, it sounds like your other friend is a pompous twit. Maybe you should rethink your "ethics" before posting hollow and pointless accusations on CC. You should probably tell the one who is thinking of reporting this friend that calling an admissions office to report her would be childish and also meaningless seeing as the office would probably side with the applicant since she is what one might call actually Hispanic. Read the definition and tell your other friend reporting her will only waste time, long-distance money, and a lot of useless words.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I forgot to remove myself from the e-mail notification.</p>
<p>I just want you to know that I actually cried after I read that last post. I didn't know that people could be so insensitive. This is the parents forum. I expect to be treated kindly by adults. Not punished. For the record, I didn't tell my other friend about this - ever think this girl might have told more than one person? Ever think she might have said she had never thought to put it before? I didn't go behind her back to get the other person involved - I told the other person not to get involved and will continue to do so. The other person knew because she told her. And for the record she didn't explain the entire situation to Harvard.</p>
<p>Also, how dare you call my friend a "pompous twit." You don't know her and she is a very nice person. I'm a veteran CC poster and I'm sitting her pouring out tears at the computer screen. THAT is what's rediculous. </p>
<p>Insults directed towards me will no longer be received because I am deleting my submission and writing a letter to the coordinators of CC. So, what's the phrase, it will be "a lot of useless words." </p>
<p>Yes, I'm probably being a bit childish. I'm sure I'll get some nasty remarks about that. But I was just called unethical and my friend was called a twit. I am a teenager. This is supposed to be a forum for adults. Not adults who belittle the very people they are supposed to parent.</p>