"Race" in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 10

Applying to College
721

<p>Well @BiologyMaster64, I don’t agree that there is reason for you to respond to me using ad hominem attacks. I am certainly proud of my heritage, chose to put it down on my college applications, and identify with my culture. </p>

<p>I told you that this largely was coming from my own experience as an applicant who is friends with many other high achieving students through extracurriculars. I admit that I was generalizing but that does not change the message. I’m not saying that there aren’t Asian Americans who do not fit that stereotype and that there aren’t stereotypical applicants from other races or heritages. I merely said that IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, the academically achieving Asian Americans who were shut out of the “top colleges” are those who fit that idea of a stereotypical Asian applicant. I also did not argue that conforming to that stereotype is wrong. Some of my very best friends conformed to that stereotype and ended up at remarkably great colleges themselves. But even then, they tell me that it’s harder to stand out, as there are only so many kids who can have a solo performance at Carnegie Hall or make NFL Nationals.</p>

<p>If you want to bring up the humanities focused Asian applicant I also would be very interested to see a case study of how a sample of them does in college admissions.</p>

<p>Runnerxc: I will certainly give you that. Your criticism is fair and valid, and I respect that. I am merely implying that in the eyes of SOME Asian parents (including my own) this is the “key” to getting into college.</p>

<p>In the end, my personal views were that colleges have niches for interests and activities, not races (what i meant by holistic admissions). The reason that Asian American admitted students have some measurable difference in statistical measures than those in other races were that extracurricularly, on average there were more people competing for a smaller niche.</p>

<p>Perhaps naive (thinking that colleges cannot be giving racial preference morally), but I would argue not racist.</p>

722

<p>I think it’s important not to assign behaviors / interests by racial classification.</p>

723

<p>Post 714 - </p>

<p>"- A strong record in classical music, especially instruments such as the violin, piano, or flute.

  • Accolades in speech and debate, perhaps reaching NFL national success.
  • Math team or science team, or perhaps knowledge bowl or quiz bowl.
  • Participation in AIME or producing a project for Intel.
  • Internships and research over the summer in a science field.
  • Cultural activities such as dance and learning/teaching language."</p>

<p>Many of the Asians focus on STEM fields and so it is common to have interests that are concentrated in that area. If they are also doing music and dance, that makes them well rounded. I suppose you have not looked up Harvard orchestra to see how many Asians participate? They have to get really good at it to make it.</p>

<p>Btw, if they do this many activities, they do make it to top colleges. Most people assume doing well in school and scoring north of 2300 is sufficient and that is never the case. The 4000 in your sample are going places even if only 100 get into Harvard.</p>

724

<p>^Doing a lot of activities is NOT going to help you. I was the president of two clubs and active in a couple more, was in two bands, and had published one of my own video games. Didn’t matter; I got rejected even from schools where my GPA and test scores were above average. The reason? I wasn’t highly concentrated in ONE area. Colleges say they want well-rounded students, but this is a cleverly phrased lie designed to bring their acceptance rates down; they want a well-rounded class full of steeply angled students.</p>

725

<p>Without knowing anything about your specific interests, colleges you applied to, and your essays, I can safely say that concentrating on one will actually not get you into colleges, unless that one results in a major accomplishment like curing cancer or being a nationally recognized cello player.</p>

<p>I know plenty of Asian kids who did many activities and got into top colleges. It is not about being president of two clubs or being a member of more but being involved in something for 10 years or more which is where activities like sports, music, dance play a role. It shows elite colleges that you have enough time to do many activities outside of school and still do well in school. It is a mistake made by many students to assume signing up for 5 clubs in school makes them appealing without realizing most of the other applicants from their school are also claiming to be somebody in the same club.</p>

<p>I do want to state that despite many accomplishments, many students don’t make the cut at elite colleges and this should not be considered a reflection on their shortage of accomplishments but how students are selected at these colleges.</p>

726

<p>

Justice Kennedy is writing a muddled opinion that is hard to figure out.
Posts in this thread are the warm-up act.</p>

727

<p>

Watch some telenovelas on Univision and you will get a general ides.</p>

728

<p>Hispanic classification is not based on race. It is based on cultural/ancestral/geographical ties to a Spanish-speaking country. Therefore, if you are the grandchild of WW2 blonde/blue-eyed Nazi war criminal who fled Germany and became a citizen of Argentina, then you can argue that you are hispanic. You don’t even have to speak a word of Spanish.</p>

729

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<p>Justice Kennedy has always been very clear about his view on the use of racial classification in admissions. He thinks real diversity is a goal worth pursuing, which is why he didn’t join Part IV of the Opinion for the Court in Parents Involved, where Chief Justice Roberts argued that diversity is not a “compelling state interest.”</p>

<p>But Justice Kennedy has never approved of the sham racial balancing plans that lead to fake “diversity.” He condemned these plans in Grutter, Gratz, and Parents Involved.</p>

<p>It’s telling how desperately the pro-racial preference side wishes to cling to their favored racial balancing plans that they just can’t cater to Justice Kennedy’s view, even though he’s been the “swing vote” for years now. Apparently, real diversity is not what they really want; they desire only the illusion.</p>

730

<p>Affirmative action is a good idea, but only on social and economic bases. Social bases would include parents’ education level, both parents at home, or disability. Economic bases would include income and assets of parents (or self if emancipated).</p>

<p>A poor student of European descent, with parents who do not have HS diplomas, is going to be in a much worse place than any middle class African-American or Hispanic, especially if their parents went to college.</p>

<p>Case in point are my nephews; half-European ancestry, half-Puerto Rican ancestry. They never learned Spanish. They are upper middle class. Their best friends are not Hispanic. Their father is an upper-level manager with a graduate degree. Their mother graduated secretarial school after HS. Do they really need affirmative action? If you want to get personal, neither look Hispanic (fair skinned and light brown slightly wavy hair) and of course they speak perfect English with no accent since they only know one language.</p>

<p>Other case in point is my spouse: full European ancestry back several generations, ancestors had fought in the Revolutionary War and Civil War. Poor as dirt. Mother and father both have HS diplomas but no relatives ever went to college. Second in his family to go to college. His brother’s kids did not even think about college. It is likely that our kids will go to college, and be the only part of the line that is pursuing college.</p>

<p>Another case: all of my cousins on my mother’s side (15 people) except for me and my brothers never went to college. The other extreme: all of my cousins on my father’s side (11 people) went to college, more than half got graduate degrees including two doctors and two lawyers. The difference? Money. Background very very similar. </p>

<p>As for us reporting race, my kids are mostly European, with some Asian and even less African. Because usually people are asked to report as only one race, we often report “Other” or “Prefer not to answer”.</p>

<p>The whole race thing is all about benefitting people moving up in the world. You can be white and poor or black and poor or Asian and poor, etc. And in that case, you need a lot more help than someone who is rich and any particular race. Just like a woman who has money needs a lot less help than a woman who is poor. Or a disabled person with money needs a lot less help than a disabled person who is poor.</p>

<p>Let’s at least divide up resources first based on finances and social situation, and then, if necessary, bring race into it.</p>

731

<p>I just say “other” or “decline to state”.
There’s no “North American” box. So it’s pointless to me.</p>

732

<p>Totally agree. What does the college or government need to know your sex or race for application purposes? Isn’t that the entire purpose of EQUAL opportunity for all - may the best person be selected regardless of race, sex, sexual orientation, etc.</p>

<p>This offends me.</p>

<p>I hope at some point in time it will become illegal to ask this on an application. All college applicants should be assigned a general number to which all data is used to assess the application, that does not relate to race, sex sexual orientation. Then, things will be EQUAL OPPORTUNITY for all.</p>

<p>Personally, I would not report either (and I am a female - with an engineering degree - graduated with honors…no ones business but my own) !</p>

733

<p>If u don’t want to check the box, then don’t. But it’s not like u are hiding anything. They can pretty much gather from your name, zipcode, FB page what race u are.</p>

734

<p>Cultural diversity is great and has been proven by science and reason to be a valuable end for academic institutions.</p>

735

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<p>No, because this controls in no way for the events that occur prior to the application’s reading - in the applicant’s life as a result of his background, and the sociohistorical events that created that background. These intrinsically limit equal opportunity.</p>

736

<p>

The USGovt has a compelling interest in compiling this data (it’s voluntary for all applicants) in college admissions and employment recruiting as well. It’s a tool to keep employers/schools from purposefully avoiding certain ethnic groups – i.e. discriminatory hiring/admissions practices. We aren’t 50 years past the Civil Rights act. Do you honestly think that states and employers would have changed from their Jim Crow ways if not for Federal Govt intervention?</p>

<p>And you again, hit your head against the myth that colleges’ sole duty is to admit the “most qualified” applicants (as you define it?). It’s not. When you open your college, you can determine this. Private colleges have a lot of leeway. Public colleges have less leeway but still, can determine to a large extent, the composition of their admitted students (e.g. # slots set aside for recruited athletes or preferences for Veterans). I suppose you’d dismiss these “preferences” in your universe, correct?</p>

<p>But you have many options. The vast vast majority of US colleges solely admit based on academic criteria w/o any regard to other factors. </p>

<p>But the rub is this: these largely, tend not to be the “premier” sorts of colleges most targeted by denizens of College Confidential. No having your cake and eating it too.</p>

737

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<p>How do you determine that an academic institution is adequately diverse? When the racial percentages of the student body mirror that of the school’s town? the state? the country? the world?</p>

738

<p>^ good question. But a starting goal of mirroring the country seems logical. It seems that this passes the common sense test.</p>

<p>Beyond this, I’d support boosting traditionally shut out groups such as native Americans who comprise a tiny minority of the overall US population. Given the extremely unique historical treatment of this group, is there arguments against preferential treatment for them? I wonder.</p>

739

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<p>Hispanic/Latino comprises 16.7% of the U.S. population. Should U Michigan have 16.7% Hispanic/Latino students?</p>

740

<p>^ I dunno. But should a Public college in CA, NM or AZ aim for that? I would think so.</p>