"Race" in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 7

<p>The great majority of colleges admit the great majority of their applicants, but a lot of people get very upset about policies that deny (so they think) “their right” to get into a few highly desired colleges. That’s why discussion of special college admission policies is so contentious.</p>

<p>"There is a difference between “birthright” as “since they were born” and “birthright” as in “all you have to do do is be born into some circumstances.”</p>

<p>I was referring to a post from the 255th time we had this discussion (toward the end of <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/809185-race-college-admission-faq-discussion-6-a.html?highlight=Race+College+Admission+FAQ+Discussion[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/809185-race-college-admission-faq-discussion-6-a.html?highlight=Race+College+Admission+FAQ+Discussion&lt;/a&gt; ?), when a poster included a quote that alleged Black kids knew about and counted on affirmative action from the early childhood, and that THAT was made it so “dangerous”.</p>

<p>“2000 students are also a drop in the bucket compared to the number of 18 year old Asian Americans and Caucasians. What do you say to them?”</p>

<p>I don’t understand. To me, drop in the bucket means a very small part of the whole. If you mean 2000 students are a very small number of the total number of Asian Amercian and Causcasion students that will attend college, I would agree. Those, and many of the others will probably do pretty well. Not so for many ( most?) of the other Black kids. I probably would say “congratulations”, as I assume the students thinking they were entitled to those “elite” seats will have some very good options.</p>

<p>I only use the word “bar” because so many talk about raising it and lowering one. I use 2000 because i believe it approximates the number in that old document everyone always wants to quote. The one about the extra “points” allowed for the old SAT. It said essentially that the greatest benefit was to those Black students getting SAT’s around the equivalent of today’s SAT score of 2000.</p>

<p>The biggest problem I have with all of this is that Colleges are supposed to enroll a diverse class because of the good it will do for the entire class. Yes that will come at the expense of someone that had higher marks than one of the accepted students, but that happens across all lines. Brown rejects 2/3rds of all perfect sat math scores because they could fill an entire class with perfect scoring students if they wanted. It would hardly be a diverse class but they could do it.
But the real problem is that very few people see the debate in those terms. Forgive me ahead of time by painting with a broad brush but many on this board seem to think that reparation for past events justifies Affirmative action admission. It does not nor should it. However I also point out that those who feel victimized by the college looking for a diverse class, get over it. The college is looking to build a diverse class for the good of ALL the admitted students. Will some gain admission over higher scorers? Yes but they will have done so because of the colleges attempt to build the best class.
Diversity is generally accepted to be a redeeming quality in of and by itself, so colleges looking to foster that characteristic in the make up of a student body should do so.
The real debate in my opinion would be to look at the accepted notion that diversity itself is accepted as a “good thing” Is it? To be so, remember that we would look for all involved to benefit. Most of the studies done have focused on things like greater tolerance of those that are different. In my mind this not a great reason to build a diverse class. One study from Harvard focused on a commercial bank in the Northeast. The outcome of working with Diverse teams had supposedly improved productivity. I have only heard the summary from the professor, I did not see the data and as such I can not judge the results for my self.
I raise this issue because this is the true heart of the question that asks "Is diversity in college a good thing and should we take action to provide for it?</p>

<p>I did see your earlier response to my question but I felt that all, with the exception of the Harvard study, proved the greater tolerance outcome. I still feel that more work need be done to get people to understand why and how diversity can be judged good in of and by itself.</p>

<p>I spoke to someone at an ivy league school which shall remain unnamed, and they told me that if they were to admit everyone based entirely on merit, about 90% of the class would be Asian.
They’re a bit desperate for diversity, and there’s this whole “all-american college” atmosphere that to an extent, they want to preserve.</p>

<p>Casting aside the “what is merit?” question that always arises whenever the term “merit” is invoked, Espenshade found that if admissions were in-fact “numbers only,” then we’d expect lots of selective, private colleges to look like Caltech: roughly equal numbers of whites and Asians with some “underrepresented” minorities (ie. 40/40/20).</p>

<p>It’s highly unlikely that American colleges would ever be 90% Asian if they were based strictly on “merit.” Berkeley, for example, isn’t anywhere near 90% Asian, though some predisposed to fear mongering may claim that it is.</p>

<p>The “90 percent Asian” claim has two problems: </p>

<p>a) someone has to show that that would really happen, anywhere, </p>

<p>and </p>

<p>b) someone has to show that that would really be a problem, because “Asian” is such a diverse category of people that such a campus would still be very diverse. </p>

<p>No, today there is no college campus in the United States that people have anxiety to get into–even in states with a state ban on consideration of race in college admission–with 90 percent of enrolled students who are Asian. It doesn’t happen.</p>

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<p>It means the same for me. 2000 students is nothing compared to the total number of students that will attend college. If it is nothing, why be discriminant about it, why “reserve” them for black students? Why shouldnt it be open to any student? 2000(the number is not 2000; there is no set number) “seats” set aside for students who appear to be underqualified means that there are 2000 seats less for students as a whole.</p>

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That’s the problem, isn’t it? Black students don’t score as high, so the bar is set lower for them. Socioeconomically disadvantaged whites and asians may or may not score as high either, but they are not granted the same advantage. Wheres the equitability in that?</p>

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<p>I really doubt that the best 90% of high school students are Asian. There are great students and there are students that would be tied with them if the system assigned only nominal values to statistics like grades. A 40-40 white/asian split sounds more reasonable.</p>

<p>“Justice Clarence Thomas, for example, in his dissenting opinion on the Grutter decision (2003), wrote that diversity is more a fashionable catchphrase than it is a useful term” and that, at best, diversity describes an “aesthetic” or “a certain appearance, from the shape of the desks and tables in its classrooms to the color of the students sitting in them.'”</p>

<p>Is that what you are referring to? Many pundits have said that the “diversity rationale” set forth in UCalifornia v Bakke must be approached with the greatest scrutiny possible.</p>

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<p>Quick question, as I am truly curious. State colleges are restricted by law, but are private institutions treated the same way? Harvard, perhaps? In addition to the fact that it will be almost impossible to prove that one would have gained acceptance into Harvard if it did not have an AA policy, how would AA restrictions be enforced on private institutons?</p>

<p>^ </p>

<p>Federal law prohibits ANY college that receives federal funds (that is, essentially any college) from discriminating in admission on the basis of race. </p>

<p>[Race/National</a> Discrimination Overview](<a href=“http://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/guid/ocr/raceoverview.html]Race/National”>Race, Color, or National Origin Discrimination Overview) </p>

<p>Of course the current federal law allows consideration of applicant race or ethnicity for the purpose of bringing about a diverse enrolled class, under Supreme Court decisions that mostly interpreted the federal Constitution fourteenth amendment but incidentally commented on how the federal statutory law would be applied to a privately operated college. </p>

<p>Most states have general statutes against race discrimination, which would apply to privately operated colleges in each state, but I suppose most of those statutes would similarly be interpreted by a state court to allow a diversity rationale for consideration of applicant race or ethnicity. </p>

<p>A few states ban any consideration of student race or ethnicity at all for admission purposes, but those laws appear to apply only to state-operated colleges and universities in the states I know most about. Harvard operates under Massachusetts law (which doesn’t appear to have such a ban) and federal law, and I’m not aware of anyone ever complaining about Harvard’s admission practices. </p>

<p>[OCR</a> Complaint Process](<a href=“http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/complaintprocess.html]OCR”>OCR Complaint Process) </p>

<p>Harvard admits and enrolls quite a few students each year who are officially reported to the federal government as “race unknown.” </p>

<p>[College</a> Search - Harvard College - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board) </p>

<p>[U-CAN:&lt;/a&gt; Harvard University](<a href=“ucan-network.org”>ucan-network.org)</p>

<p>“that it will be of greatest benefit to black students” </p>

<p>…was quoted WAY out of context. I was referencing that study that said Blacks got extra points on the SAT. On closer examination, the authors said something like Black students scoring around 1200 on the old SAT were “given” the equivalent of ( the most ) extra points by elite admissions. That’s my starting point for the “2000 seats” as well. </p>

<p>OTOH, I happen to believe more Black students are an advantage to the entire population, but I acknowledge that’s my perspective. I find it ironic that folks posting on this thread often say being Black only offers diversity if you are alos disadvantaged, because otherwise we all see things the same way.</p>

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<p>By the way, I believe this as well, and that is one part of my biggest buy-in to the diversity rationale for whatever it is that colleges do to consider student characteristics when they admit students. It is my regret that I didn’t have a close black friend any earlier than my first year of college–he was my classmate in Chinese class. I knew him by sight as a high school debater the day we learned each other’s names on the first day of freshman year. We became fast friends. We had a lot in common, but he had a lot of experiences that I hadn’t had because I look like almost anybody in Minnesota but he looks black. (We lived in different parts of town growing up, but we were not of radically different socioeconomic level.) I regret that I didn’t have any black classmates–not one–in high school, and I’m glad that today my own children can’t remember their first black friends or keep track of how many black people they’ve known since early childhood. Progress in integration is a good thing.</p>

<p>I know this is going to turn into a debate over racism, but I still feel the need to say it. I don’t see a point in racial diversity at schools. I think there should be economic diversity, but to see a kid in my school, who lives in the same neighborhood as me and experienced the same things I have, get diversity scholarships, while I’m stuck with only merit aid. I don’t see the fairness in giving someone an edge, that to be honest, this student doesn’t need. Why not give that diversity scholarship to a poor student? Rants over.</p>

<p>Since you already know that this is oft-discussed and you bring no new question or answer to the debate, why start another thread? Go read the many replies (some very good responses on both sides of the coin).</p>

<p>Do you honestly think there’s little value in having ethnic diversity in your higher education? Or are you really just peeved that some colleges need to work extra hard to attract people of differing ethnicities so their colleges can be a little more mixed? Or are you peeved that colleges perceive the need to make themselves more diverse as diversity itself is a marker of excellence?</p>

<p>Please tell me what racial diversity brings to higher education. I would understand if maybe he came from another part of the world or something, but he lives next door. He is just like every other kid in our school, but he has a different skin color. What does he bring besides looking different, that other kids from my school can’t bring(assuming grades and everything academic is similar).</p>

<p>And is everyone with his skin color just like him? Or everyone with your skin color just like you? You wouldn’t know without exposure to a significant number of people of various shades.</p>

<p>I do agree with the assertion that socioeconomic diversity is valuable, but I don’t agree that ethnic diversity is pointless.</p>

<p>Besides, there may not be a “need” for ethnic diversity, but many colleges have a clear desire for it–and I’m glad they do.</p>

<p>Well, then the same should go to my D’s best friend, getting a full ride just for playing tennis. Same grades, same town, same finances. And then there’s the girl who already had a full scholarship for basketball and wouldn’t you know it - she got a DAR award too! Just for being a descendant of a revolutionary soldier! And my D, hispanic with high stats, is stuck with merit aid only, and even got <em>gasp</em> rejected from a school!</p>

<p>Life is full of inequities, unfortunately.</p>

<p>Is every white American the same. I don’t think skin color effects people as much as where they were raised. A white student and black student shouldn’t be viewed differently if they were raised in the same area and experienced the same things. That clearly doesn’t make sense.</p>

<p>I realize colleges love ethnic diversity, just trying to figure out why. Skin color is only superficial, it shouldn’t be a basis for a college wanting a student.</p>

<p>Move along, everybody, it’s just another white kid experiencing angst because he is not being handed anything on a silver platter; because of this, he feels the need to start a thread where he thinks that millions will come flocking to his aid and providing some semblance of credibility to his complaints.</p>

<p>EDIT: And plus, “mattttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt” doesn’t seem to understand the amount of racism that many under-represented minorities experience.</p>

<p>I do get a little annoyed when students from my school go to top schools like Yale to play football even if they don’t have the grades, when there is no chance in hell I could get in. But even so, at least athletes are bringing a TALENT to the school. Skin color is not a talent, I still think its only superficial.</p>

<p>I don’t agree that skin color is just superficial. I think a lot of people who’ve been pulled over for “driving while black” or been followed around department stores don’t feel that way, either.</p>