<p>“Obviously, most of these areas are minorities, but its not like there isn’t one white in those schools.”
You said it best.
But really, housing can easily been seen as a racial problem as well as an economic one. Many of the problems we are talking about have roots in racial issues. It would be wrong to deny this.
Remember, again, the admission committee is trying to bring together the most interesting class. I agree with you that diverse economic backgrounds can fulfill this, but so does racial, athleticism, ethnic backgrounds, diverse intelligence, musical ability, so on and so on.
And if I may, While I do not know what it is like to be black, I also think that if my great-grandfather was a slave -that alone, all other things being equal, may make me an interesting person. In fact, all “people of color” I suspect can bring something to the table that will benefit the formation of an admitted class just because they are, by definition, diverse.</p>
<p>“sdma, you don’t think that black people ever discriminate agisnt whites. ALso, the military is still an option. Why don’t they join the military if they need a job, assuming they graduated high school. If they didn’t graduate high school, then that might be why they don’t get jobs.”</p>
<p>First and foremost Matt, you didn’t answer my initial question as where to get your invalid information. Secondly, I’m not saying that some blacks don’t hold negative views about whites or “white culture.” However, I think that you have to be extremely careful in lumping the sentiments that some blacks may have with whites as to the type of ill will and discrimination that whites have harbored, enforced and implemented against African Americans. Discrimination is not about feelings; discrimination is about the act of barring certain privileges from other groups by being the group in power.</p>
<p>First of all, the discrimination against blacks in the job market is not a fact. Obviously, it does happen. But you can’t say that every time a white doesn’t offer a job to a black, its racism. So if a black guy who owns a business doesn’t hire me, should I pull the race card then?</p>
<p>Matt, having this conversation with you is rather pointless. I asked you to tell me where you get your information… You’re not willing to disclose. While an undergraduate at Cornell University, I was fortunate enough to enroll in courses in Policy Analysis & Management, Race & Public Policy, Race & Ethnic Differentiation, and sociology; so, believe me when I say that discrimination in hiring policies happens, according to my professors who have researched into this very issue. Hopefully, when you’re accepted to whichever university you’re lucky to be admitted, you will take advantage of the myriad of opportunities to learn about what occurs in the real world.</p>
<p>You have no facts to back your argument up. You say there is discrimination in the job market. Theres discrimination every where idiot. Even to whites. </p>
<p>Diversity scholarships themselves discriminate against whites. You don’t think some middle class whites need money to go to college just as much as minorities do. Giving a scholarship to one type of people is the definition of discrimination.</p>
<p>Matt, name calling shows your immaturity and that you have a lot of growing up to do. Anyway, why delve into this discussion anymore when you clearly aren’t willing to accept any information contrary to your own biased beliefs? </p>
<p>In regard to diversity scholarships, this makes me laugh because, again, you show how inexperienced you are in regard to racial and ethnic history, relations and policies. Question: are you in high school? Next question: are you insecure about your scores and lashing out at diversity scholarships because of your own possible inadequate grades and test scores?</p>
<p>Also, if discrimination in the job market does happen with whites to the same degree as racial minorities, do me a favor by telling me where you received this information, if it at all exists.</p>
<p>Give me numbers on how often it happens to minorities. You say it does, but you can’t just say any time they get rejected its discrimination. How can you tell the prevalence of the situation? How can ANYONE tell the prevalence of the situation? You can’t assume that employers are racists.</p>
<p>I’m “lashing out” at diversity scholarships because I feel that if I had similar experiences as a minority, and we go to the same school, the minority still benefits. I don’t see how that is fair. If our finances are the same, grades are the same, scores are the same, etc., he will get money and get into colleges over me just because the superficial. The student might be African American, but nobody has put him in slavery, nobody has segregated him, no horrible wrongs have been done to him, so why does he still benefit? When does Affirmative Action stop being need? Will Obama’s kids benefit even though they won’t need to?</p>
<p>Fine mattt. I have been reading through your posts and found them to be both ignorant, and upsetting. I am an African American who lives in an upper class neighborhood. I could be your next door neighbhor. Maybe I can tell you my experiences and almost stand in for the poor AA friend you are bashing 2 show you what i see.</p>
<p>1.As for statistics; CNN’s groundbreaking report BLACK IN AMERICA , reported that being a black male while searching for a job is the equivalent of having a felony.I do not make these things up.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>In Malcolm Gladwell’s “Blink” , african Americans who are buying cars are often quoted over a $5,000 higher price than their white counterparts. AA in this study were upper income and professionals and acted with decorum and bargained down the price but still recieved a higher price than comparable whites. They were cheated.</p></li>
<li><p>The practice of not selling homes to qualified African Americans in hgher income suburbs is known as redlining- and yes, it does occur. </p></li>
<li><p>In Freakonomics Stephen Levitt quotes a study showing that employers are more likely to hire people woth traditionaly white names- “Sarah” ; than traditionally black names “Chantelle”.
When asked why, employers said people with such names are more lilely to be lazy and disrespectful. Obviously, this was an unbased stereotype.</p></li>
<li><p>African American women also lose in love. A times News magazine article examined the how many replies were sent to African american women on online dating sites. They recieved the least number of interest by males. THey were suffereing from media sterotypes that portray AA women as loud, bossy and often stupid.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>There’s much more I can share but I have to go.</p>
<p>Opposing racial preferences doesn’t mean believing that one is entitled to admission at an elite university. I feel that the whole “entitlement” thing is a projection on the part of racial preference supporters; they know that the policy they support in fact creates an entitlement mentality on the part of the beneficiaries. To rationalize this inconvenient truth away, they claim that their opponents have said mentality. I won’t deny that some opponents of racial preferences may indeed hold such views, but to argue that all or even most do is baseless.</p>
<p>My opposition to racial preferences stems out of my opposition to racial discrimination. I do not believe that positive racial discrimination is any better than negative racial discrimination. To me, it is the same; that you claim to be doing it for the benefit of “society” does not negate that you are discriminating on the basis of racial classification. I would oppose racial preferences even if it were shown that race-neutral admissions results in fewer Asians admitted as opposed to more.</p>
<p>I do not oppose racial preferences because I was “hurt” by them, and I think it is very unfair to argue that the only people who oppose racial preferences are those who were either rejected from their dream schools or don’t understand the policy. I absolutely understand the policy. It’s because I understand it that I oppose it!</p>
<p>Give you numbers? I’m not going to take the time to give you numbers because it would literally take all day. Instead, read a study conducted by Gaertner et al (2000) in a journal entitled “Psychological Science”. It’s about selection decisions in hiring, and this article and study proves my point. </p>
<p>Additionally, there are other studies conducted in many respectable psychology peer reviewed journals in the United States. My professor for a class I took had us read and analyze three studies dealing with selections and decisions made in hiring. According to these studies, given the same qualifications and background, whites were more likely to be called back for interviews, and whites were more likely to be hired. Whites without a college degree had more of a chance to be hired than blacks with a college degree. Blacks without a college degree stood literally no chance in being asked for an interview. This held constant despite employers that claim to be “Affirmative Action Employers.”</p>
<p>I never said that if a minority isn’t hired for a job, it’s automatically racism. The fact is that I’ve read, analyzed and synthesized articles on this issue, and you, sadly, don’t have any experience doing so. </p>
<p>The reason why blacks, latino, and native american students benefit from “diversity scholarships” is because minorities are extremely underrepresented within academia, medicine, law, business, and practically any field of education that you can think of. Scholarship programs are used to ensure that more of these students go into higher education, and help to add racial diversity within programs that are largely white. Also, there are many other scholarship programs that exist for other students that bring other assets to the classroom besides racial diversity based on geographic location, ethnic background, socioeconomic status, GENDER, community service, legacy status, etc. You only single out racial diversity scholarships, and, by extension, affirmative action, and my question is, Why? Instead of worrying about the small number of minorities who may receive a tip factor in admission, you should be more concerned about yourself and how to strengthen your application for admissions committees. Don’t attempt to try to use Affirmative Action as an excuse if you happen to receive thin envelopes in the mail just because you didn’t stand out in the eyes of admissions committees. </p>
<p>As for the African American student who “is from the same economic background as you,” you’re right that this student hasn’t been put into slavery, but it’s completely illogical for you to assume that a black student who is a visible racial minority would have the exact same experience as you given the type of history this country has, especially if he attends a predominantly white institution where he has to be the walking example of the African American community. </p>
<p>As for the Obama children, they will get many benefits due to the fact that they are the children of the President, not because they are “merely black.”</p>
<p>Matt
You took the bait and now you are trying to defend an indefensible position. You asked an intelligent question and I have given you an intelligent answer. Instead of discussing and debating the answer you keep stating the same things.
If your are white and your friend is a minority by definition you cant have similar experiences!
And again, you choose to look at diversity scholarships as discrimination but if thats the case you are being discriminated against on the basis of athleticism, economic background, musical ability, intelligence, and any other number of qualities that an admission committees decides are redeeming qualities in an incoming class.
In as much as you fail to see my point, I am afraid that others also miss the point as well.
Affirmative decisions are not meant to compensate for past injustices. That would be wrong. But they are useful in building a diverse class!</p>
<p>jfl, this kid DOES NOT NEED MONEY. He would still be going to college, he would just be paying more like the rest of his class mates who he is now put ahead of. You say that I am being discriminated against by athleticism and economic background, but athletes bring a talent that I don’t have, and economic backgrounds bring NEED that I don’t have.</p>
<p>Also, read an article by Douglas Massey entitled “The Age of Extremes: Concentrated Affluence and Poverty in the Twenty-First Century.” It’s published in a journal entitled “Demography.” He makes the argument that in order to end poverty, racial discrimination has to end first.</p>
<p>okay, back.</p>
<p>So,many of my white classmates often look at me like I’m insane when I talk about racism. They think ," how does a person who is in my school,in an upper class neighborhood, with well-to-do parents–have anything in common withthose gangsers on television?" How does my race disadvantage me, despite my affluent class?</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I experience racism all the time.( i will elaborate these situations if you request later but some are too painful to speak of.Let’s just say that I spent a lot of time crying.)</p></li>
<li><p>In my honors, and advanced classes; I am a tiny minority. I feel lonely, cut adrift. Obviously, I can relate to people not of my race. However,you must understand that everyone wants to see at least one person like them. Imagine ,(assuming you are male), living in a place without males–you would feel a bit lonely? correct? My loneliness is even more painful when I realize that many of my fellow African americans are not in the higher levels of arts OR sciences.</p></li>
<li><p>Being in a double- bind
The race vs. Class puts me in a double bind. I do not speak ebonics, even though I canand I try to excel in school-- this makes some of my fellow african americans dislike me and say I’m"trying to be white" . Yet, when I turn to the white culture for acceptance-- “we’re all American right?” I find that I am close but no cigar. I cannot be fully accepted. Which hurts both my identity formation and leaves me shut out of both groups.</p></li>
<li><p>My history classes and English classes don’t address African American culture/contributions enough. Until i did my own research; people such as Ida B., Ira Aldridge,WEB Du Bois, were virtually unkown to me. African Americans,have published patents which have created more safe elevators so people would stop falling out of them. The first home security system was created by an African American woman. There are so many more incidences that are not talked about in my history books. Our school does not celebrate Martin Luther King day, or even recognize it.This meant that, for most of my childhood, I thought it was bad to be black.</p></li>
<li><p>My parents do not have as much savings as people of their comparative social stature. I was reading an article on the challenges that black middle class faces—one of them is that a sudden fall from grace could mean abject poverty. There is no economic cushion or savings or middle classfamily to fall black on. This is especially worrying because the unemployment rate for african americans is higher than those for whites. According to the Us. Gov. Bureau of Labor statistics, the unemployment rate for whites is -7.8%
Blacks?-13.8%
Its pretty hard to deny those numbers. I wprry, often , what I would do if I lost my mother or my parents lost their jobs. we have no family to help us. We’d be gone.</p></li>
<li><p>Every day, I must wage war against the african american sterotype. I worry about how I dress, my behabior, even my grades because I want to prove to the children in my 96% white school that african americans are intelligent, worthy members of the global community. When i recieve a bad grade, or act stupidly in class. I feel doubly bad because i have not just disgraced myself, but my race. When I go to competitions; I put increased pressure on myself to do well because i must be a shining good black example. you may argue that these pressures are self-induced. But they are still contributing to my pain and frustration. I work hard so people like you will try to give another black man or woman a chance when you see them on the steet some day and not just assume “lower class and stupid.”
Honestly, i could go on…there are more.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>But do you see some of the disadvantages, I and your friend face?</p>
<p>Now, Matt, don’t try to say that I haven’t used any evidence to support my opinion. For anything, you still haven’t answered my question as to where you get your information. This answer is still wanting.</p>
<p>mattt, I refuse to discuss anything else with you unless you can answer my posts.I gave you statistics and an eye-witness account. fess up and give up. You lose. You have weak points and I tore them down. Crumble in defeat.</p>
<p>Matt Matt Matt…
Its not a question of his need!!! Its a question of whether or not the school wants to attract him for whatever reason!!! They want him because of what he has. He is not jumping ahead of someone else because they lack what the college wants.
I know you can see this point. It answers your original question.
Colleges value racial diversity therefore they will promote and seek to obtain racial diversity.
You might not agree or you might not like it but thats their prerogative!</p>
<p>Your real question should be why do colleges value racial diversity?
A fair question.
Answered in an intelligent fashion (I hope)
Fabrizo is on the right track for a debate because he ultimatley questions the value of pursuing diversity. If I remember, he thinks that given a level field diversity will create itself.
I am not too sure however we can say that the field is level yet. It may be more level now than it was in 1855 but 150 years later its not level yet.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That is a fair assessment of my position. Thank you.</p>
<p>I am absolutely against institutionalized segregation. As Chief Justice Warren wrote, “Separate but equal is inherently unequal.” I believe diversity is a great thing, but I believe its benefits only manifest when it is obtained naturally and when people voluntarily decide to partake of its benefits. In other words, while you certainly can engineer the image of diversity, you cannot force its actual realization. Given a set of policies, you can definitely make a nice, attractive brochure, but you can’t guarantee that people of differing backgrounds, upbringings, and racial classifications actually intermingle. And so I actually do not believe a level playing field is a requirement for naturally occurring diversity. To me, as long as you don’t have institutionalized segregation, you will get diversity.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I have no problems with racially imbalanced schools. For example, I do not believe that an all-black or a majority black school is a “bad” thing in and of itself. If the students are learning in a safe and productive environment, why does that matter? The only thing that matters is whether the school helps them become informed citizens and prepares them for life after graduation. If it can do that, then it’s a good school, and its demographics are utterly irrelevant.</p>