<p>Economic affirmative action is much more important than racial affirmative action, yes. We’ve certainly come to the point where poverty affects your chances of success much more than race. For that matter, I don’t really support race-based affirmative action at all; there is racism, but I don’t think that really helps anything.</p>
<p>No offense Matt, but some of your posts that you’ve made are, at least in my opinion, a bit racist and misinformed about African Americans, and then you ask why racial/ethnic scholarships are needed?</p>
<p>T264, there situation maybe caused by race, but race isn’t keeping them down, finances are. Agree?</p>
<p>amarkov, that is all im saying. I believe we passed a point where economic scholarhsips should be given instead of race. Race may or may not have gotten them where they are (doesn’t matter), but now finances are hurting them</p>
<p>Sdma, how is this racist?</p>
<p>Disagree. Race contributes to their plight. If they weren’t minorities, there is a good chance they would have already been helped out/been able to get a job. As it stands, employers are oftentimes afraid of hiring poor minorities.</p>
<p>helped out? lol you act as if white people aren’t also unemployed. jaddua, i think the lack of education of these poor minorites is what causes them not being hired. Way to pull the race card at any chance you get.</p>
<p>I’m done</p>
<p>Matt, in the employment arena, being a racial minority can prevent you from being hired, even by employers that claim “Affirmative Action Employer.” Earlier, you mentioned that blacks aren’t discriminated in housing; they are. You had no idea about white flight and education; this happened. And now, you’re saying employers don’t discriminate based on race? Again, where do you get your information?</p>
<p>I said it contributed to it, I didn’t cite it as the only cause. </p>
<p>And you started this entire argument. You clearly lost.</p>
<p>Of course race is a factor. But consider which of the following things an interviewer would ever dream of saying:</p>
<p>“I didn’t hire him because he looked too poor.”</p>
<p>“I didn’t hire him because he looked too black.”</p>
<p>I have to say, I agree with Old College Try’s discussion of the Bob Marley quote (two pages back). Racism will persist against all races as long as humans have brains with which to think. Some races face more racism, some are confronted with more “positive” racism, but bias is not an excuse for a lack of success. Far too many minorities embrace their role as victims, allow themselves to fail and then blame society for their woes. Others rebuke stereotypes and excel (proving that it is not so much the system that is the problem, but rather the mentality of the people). African-Americans gained civil liberties when an entire generation decided that they can and will be great. One day, hopefully, humans of all creeds (whites, blacks, Latinos, Asians, Jews, LGBTs, etc.) will realize that they are capable of anything. On that day the world will become an immensely better place and racism will be greatly reduced. </p>
<p>“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.” -Marianne Williamson (this quote is used in the film “Akeelah and the Bee” if you recognize it).</p>
<p>And so now that you are at school with your black friend, who has the same experiences as you and is really “white”, he would be surprised to know that his friend and neighbor, someone he thinks is probably happy for him, spent 4 hours on CC last night complaining that he got a scholarship because he is black.</p>
<p>I agree with Old College Try and Robespierre21. Arguments concerning white flight are really dated. Many states changed the way schools are funded and such funding is no longer tied to real property taxes, so white flight has nothing to do with school funding. Also, there are literally hundreds of examples (Kansas City, D.C., Detroit, Oakland, etc.) where boatloads of money were poured into inner-city schools (in percentages that greatly exceeded so-callled white schools in the area) for years and test scores continued to decline. </p>
<p>My experience has been that people my age are not prejudiced against anyone’s color; they are just afraid of some people based on their actions. Those African Americans in my school who take school seriously and live in my neighborhood are as accepted as anyone. It never even dawned on me to think differently of them or anyone else based on skin color. But there are some African Americans in my school who do frighten me. It’s not the color of their skin that frightens me, it’s how they behave. Some white kids and Hispanic kids scare me for the same reason. </p>
<p>In neighborhoods where kids grow up in broken homes, people tend to act more violently, regardless of their skin color. The sad part is that more African Americans grow up in homes without two parents than other races. We read last year in Sociology that something like 85 percent of African American children are born to unwed mothers. That, I believe, is the real problem, and one that can be corrected only by African Americans – hence the applicability of Bob Marley’s advice. If you look at the top performers in my high school, which includes three African Americans, all of them come from stable homes with two parents (or at least divorced families where both parents take an active role in their lives). All of the kids I know who don’t have stable homes stuggle with school and life. Maybe instead of worrying about racism (which everyone color is guilty of), white flight, how much money is spent in schools, etc., we should focus on strengthening families.</p>
<p>Here’s a news story </p>
<p>[Pact</a> to help Minneapolis black students falters | StarTribune.com](<a href=“http://www.startribune.com/local/86294477.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUac8HEaDiaMDCinchO7DU]Pact”>http://www.startribune.com/local/86294477.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUac8HEaDiaMDCinchO7DU) </p>
<p>about persistent achievement gaps in a public school system in a state with equalized funding per student. (Well, actually, students in poor areas receive slightly GREATER state funding per student, which makes up the great majority of school funding, than students in wealthy areas.) There is still a lack of communication between the civil service bureaucracy of the school system and the unionized teachers and the families that make up many of their clients.</p>
<p>^Thanks for that article. I understand that desire for African Americans to want to blame others for the academic achievement gap, but looking for outside factors to blame will never solve the problem. Until the African-American community addresses the “mental slavery” issues like low academic expectations and the prevalence of children growing up in broken homes, the achievement gap will always be there. As an Asian woman, I’ve long recognized that I’m not smarter or richer or better than any other person at my school. The only reason I achieved academically is because my parents have expected me to since I was born. That’s all I’ve heard for 17 years. My Asian friends have heard the same thing. I’m no expert but I really think there is a direct connection between how a student does in school and what the expectations at home and in the community are for that student. I read a speech by Bill Cosby about this exact point. Instead of accepting his wisdom, people attacked him. How can things improve given this reaction?</p>
<p>WOW
Some very caustic comments! But to Matttts point about racial diversity being a good thing:
Jaddua, understand that you will lose the argument when you opine that affirmative action for admission is necessary to compensate for racial injustice. That is a losing argument.
The real debate goes to the heart of Matttts original question, which has been forgotten but was, Is racial diversity something that will benefit the entire class.(paraphrased)
Many studies have been done that show racial diversity will improve race relations. Does this improvement justify affirmative admissions?
I question whether or not there are much gains to be had outside of this result, but thi8s result in of and by itself is probably a good reason to continue the practice.
Thats the real argument. Thats how the argument should be couched. Jaddua and others rightfully point out that racial discrimination is alive and well (and will probably always be) but that should not stop us from trying to limit it.
So I ask all to think about it again from this point of view-
Is racial diversity something that will help build a better incoming class, and by that I mean will ALL be better off because of it.</p>
<p>4 hours susan? did you benefit from these diversity scholarships, because I don’t think colleges would accept people who can’t count. 10:30 to 1. Tell me where you get 4 hours.</p>
<p>sdma, you don’t think that black people ever discriminate agisnt whites. ALso, the military is still an option. Why don’t they join the military if they need a job, assuming they graduated high school. If they didn’t graduate high school, then that might be why they don’t get jobs.</p>
<p>tokenadult, were those students going to the same schools? i don’t see how people who go to the same public school can be differentiated by race. What I mean by this is they are learning the same things, by the same people and if the black students fail, or the white students, that shouldn’t matter. The oppurtunities being given are the same and 34% of blacks in those schools graduated, so it can be done. If they went to different schools,ignore this post. </p>
<p>This is so offtopic. My question was meant to ask about when affirmative action should end. SHould the Obama kids still benefit from affirmative action? The family is succesful and doesn’t need any help. The help shouldn’t be aimed at skin color, but the financial situation. Scholarships should be for the NEEDY or for those who EARNED IT.</p>
<p>I would disagree with your last post Matttttt. The sometimes hostile posts on this topic provides anecdotal evidence that when it comes to race relations we still have a long way to go. Racial diversity among the incoming class at a college can only make the entire class better prepared to discuss the various topics raised here today, such as housing, education, and equality. All of these issues will of course be better understood when a diverse population discusses them. Wouldn’t you agree?</p>
<p>jfl, finally someone gives me a real reason. But I still have a problem with this. The problems you list such as education and housing are more of an economic issue rather than a racial one. The education is poor because of the bad finances in the neighborhood. There couldbe whites in that neighborhood as well. What about them? Obviously, most of these areas are minorities, but its not like there isn’t one white in those schools.</p>